Amy is right, if you date men who are unethical you will end up with a cheater. I have a friend who only seems to attract men who are attached and then gets her heart broken when they cheat on HER! Eye roll here.

Get to know the men before you jump in with your heart. Watch how he treats people, watch him for the behaviors he seems to think are okay in his friends but you do not think is okay. If his best friend is cheating and he has no problem with it, trust me he has the potential to be a cheater.

Maya Angelou said something once - "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them. The first time." My addition to that if what they show you is something you do not think yoiu can live with, MOVE ON!

Spot on, Amy, the first thought I had was not how terrible her boyfriend was, but why she stayed with him to be "cheated on so much..."

No one should discover that they've been cheated on more than once. A possible exception might be if there is a sincere effort for reform after being busted (particularly if there's kids involved). But if it happens again, it's splitsville.

I read the message as she found out after the fact that he had been lieing and cheating. I cannot tell which is correct.

I would agree you should not continue dating someone you have found to be lier or a cheater unless you have kids with her/him.

Other than that, you have to keep your eyes open but not too open or everything will seem suspicious. I don't have any advice on how to strike the balance.

Other than that, you have to keep your eyes open but not too open or everything will seem suspicious. I don't have any advice on how to strike the balance.

One problem with that is, serial cheaters are just so damn good at it, that they don't get caught unless they want to get caught. I've seen it so many times it ain't funny. It's one thing to get involved with someone, even with both eyes open, who is who they say they are. It's totally another to get involved with someone who's exceptionally good at pulling the wool over your eyes. The best advice I can give is "go with your gut". If you feel deep down in your gut that something isn't right (and you know that feeling, everyone does!), then trust that something isn't right. I can't tell you how many times I didn't listen to my gut and wished I had. You want to listen to your heart, but your heart will lie to you. You want to believe in your head what you think is right but your head will lie to you, because it will rationalize the bad behavoir. ALWAYS go with your gut.

"I would agree you should not continue dating someone you have found to be lier or a cheater unless you have kids with her/him."

And, ideally, you shouldn't still be dating them at this point. Continuing is questionable unless there is a real effort to reform.

I agree with Flynne. Some cheaters are masterful. There are signs, but I think one thing for me is that I always tried to be soooo fairminded and/or openminded that I was reluctant to simply say, "That's not ok", if there was an opposing argument.

Take flirting, for instance. Now, to me - after my experiences - that's a sign of a cheater. Someone who flirts with the waitress, the desk clerk, the stewardess, etc. I remember being so annoyed by it early on, and it set off warning bells, but many (including my ex) maintain that flirting is innocent.

So, I was hesitant to take a stand on that either way. Maybe some people CAN do it innocently. In fact, I'm sure they can, but which are which?

Therefore, when I was ready to choose a new partner, I decided that, regardless of the arguments on either side, I didn't want to be with a guy who flirted.

Perhaps that was going the overcautious route, but it's what I'm personally comfortable with, and so LW needs to look at her own criteria - make a list of the major things she wants and doesn't want - and if someone fails on any of these grounds, don't simply dismiss that.

Another red flag: Previous cheating. If you know he cheated on his last girlfriend, expect the same treatment. Don't convince yourself you're different- you're not.

With just one paragraph of information, all I have are questions. Is this last boyfriend also her first boyfriend? It this a pattern of behavior or her first experience with a scumbag? How the heck old is she anyway?

Your friend is right. They aren't all like that. Write him off as a bad life experience, but learn from it.

I had a boyfriend who liked to flirt with waitresses and stare at other women. He wasn't worth it. I guess some people can flirt innocently, but if a guy I'm with is flirting with others, it just seems rude.

I was married to a serial cheater. He had a job were he could be out in the field most of the day. All of his cheating was during office hours. He was very very good at hiding it. There are things that were red flags when I look back on it all. Mind you I was very young (19) when we got married.
1. Does he ALWAYS look eve at every half way attractive woman look up and down?
2. Does he introduce you to female friends who cannot look you in the eye or seem hostile to you?
3. Does he think that if a woman talks to him she is flirting?
4. Does he suddenly change his habits - shopping for his own underwear? Shirts? Pants? Cologne?
5. When you ask him about his day is he evasive or hostile?
6. Does it suddenly seem that nothing you do is right? Suddenly is the key here.
7. Does he accuse you of having an affair without any reason to believe so?

No everyone needs to know what flirting is, I certainly believe one can have a conversation with the opposite sex without it being flirtatious, my ex does not think so.

My last boyfriend lied and cheated so much that I am wary of all guys now. My best friend keeps telling me that not all guys are like him and that I just have to put myself back out there.

Well, I hate to break the bad news to you (and you know what they say: don't shoot the messenger...just rough him up a little bit) but it's true. Back when the first guys were hanging out, they made a pact to lie and cheat, and swore on a stack of sticks that they and their male descendants would practice and enforce this behavior forever and ever. Throughout history, small groups of honorable men have rebelled -- most notably in the East African Insurrection of 326 BC, the Shaoyang Rebellion of 953, La Révolte Corse in 1437 and the Cincinnati Uprising of 1879 -- but they were quickly suppressed without mercy by their lying, cheating overlords. So honorable men quickly learned that to survive, they had to depend on stealth and cunning, never letting other men know that they are honest and faithful. I've heard stories of a underground network (not electronic...the internet is far too dangerous) but its existence has never been substantiated. I think most men just have to go it alone.

I like your list, Worthita. I'll add a few more. It does no good for us to blame women for not seeing signs if they don't know what signs to look for. Here's more:

Does he always keep his cellphone close - even taking it into the bathroom when he showers? A guy who won't leave his phone just lying around may have something to hide.

Same with computer. Does he erase his history or minimize his screen when you wlak in? (this may not mean cheating - could just be porn - but it's still a flag that he's hiding something)

Is he suddenly more concerned about his appearance - starting to work out a lot. Again, "suddenly" is the key. If he goes from couch potato to gym rat, this may mean he's trying to impress someone...and it's probably not you.

Increase in the frequency of sex. This is counterintuitive, as most women believe if he's screwing someone else, he won't have energy for her, but this is often the reverse. They get so amped up on the excitement of the affair that it makes them especially horny at home.

Gifts and extra affection. Again, this is counterintuitive, but many cheaters feel guilty and will try to make up for it be being especially loving and generous. They also believe this will keep you from becoming suspicious.

"Friends" who are hot women. This may not need to be said, but I was too dense to get this one, so I'll say it for those who may wonder if their guy is only having an "innocent friendship" with a good looking woman. Beware.

These are just a few. The bigger problem is what to do if you are seeing these red flags. Do you confront him? There's not much hard evidence there, so he'll just deny anything and call you paranoid. So, do you snoop? Do you hire an investigator? (I personally wish I'd done both. I only started snooping in later years).

Jim - You are awesome. That is all.

Why thank you, Chelsey. Very nice to meet someone with the same sense of humor.

*

Flynne: One problem with that is, serial cheaters are just so damn good at it, that they don't get caught unless they want to get caught. I've seen it so many times it ain't funny. . . The best advice I can give is "go with your gut". If you feel deep down in your gut that something isn't right (and you know that feeling, everyone does!), then trust that something isn't right. I can't tell you how many times I didn't listen to my gut and wished I had.

They may not actually get caught in flagrante delicto, but do you think most of them are so good at it that they can cheat while not even arousing any suspicion?

You want to listen to your heart, but your heart will lie to you. You want to believe in your head what you think is right but your head will lie to you, because it will rationalize the bad behavoir. ALWAYS go with your gut.

I like that, particularly the part about your head also lying to you

"They may not actually get caught in flagrante delicto, but do you think most of them are so good at it that they can cheat while not even arousing any suspicion?"

Some truly can. And almost no one gets caught in flagrante delicto.

Especially, if a guy (or girl) has a job where they are unreachable most of the day, or frequently traveling, it's pretty simple for them to cheat and not arouse suspicion.

Pilots, for instance, are notorious cheaters. I live in a neighborhood populated by them, and many wives here have discovered far too late that they are unfaitful.

Yet, is being a pilot a red flag? I mean, these guys have great jobs, usually distinguished military records. They seem like great catches as husbands. And some are. But, personally, I'd never marry one.

So, that's what poses the dilemma. It's difficult to get hard evidence of cheating, and once a woman has a family, the idea of breaking it up on a mere gut instinct is agonizing. On one hand, as Flynne says, you always want to listen to your gut, but taking such drastic action without something more to go on is a bold and irrevocable move.

Thanks lovelysoul. I don't doubt that some people can cheat without even arousing any suspicion, but I was wondering if most, or that many of them, can. It seems to me that even if someone has a job where they are unreachable most of the day, or frequently traveling, and they're cheating, that they might send out a "something's different" vibe that their partner can sense.

in flagrante delicto can mean in the midst of sexual activity but it also has a more general meaning, the act of committing a misdeed, and I meant it in that more general sense. I meant that these "good cheaters" may not get caught by having an email discovered or a phone call overheard or something of that nature. Something that says "you're busted!"

I would agree with you that hardly any cheaters probably get caught in the act itself.

Pilot are notorious cheaters I'm so shocked! I mean, I'd never think that high-status males who plenty of women undoubtedly want to fuck would ever be notorious cheaters.

The classic "great catch" as (I believe) most women view men is high status and high-income (and, ideally, good-looking and tall too.) And guess what? These men attract a lot of women. And, although I could be wrong, I've always felt that cheating is, in large part, a "crime" of opportunity: the more chances you have to fuck someone else, the more likely you're going to do it.

I feel the same way about women. Women who are very desirable are going to attract a lot of men throughout their lives and, if they're married, I think the odds are pretty good that they're going to take at least one man up on his offer.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think that if a man or a woman marries someone near the top of the desirability pyramid, they should accept that part of the package deal is a significant risk that person is going to end up cheating on them.

One other comment about cheating. I have no problem with open relationships where both people agree to sleep with other people. But I think people who cheat are selfish and cowardly. I bet very few of them would be willing to let their partner do the same thing they're doing.

"Again, I could be wrong, but I think that if a man or a woman marries someone near the top of the desirability pyramid, they should accept that part of the package deal is a significant risk that person is going to end up cheating on them."

That's very true, Jim. I was just having this discusssion with my daughter, who recently ended a relationship with a kid who could be an Abercrombie model. She said she didn't think she would ever date someone "that good-looking again" because girls were always throwing themselves at him, and it was just too much stress. lol He did cheat on her with another girl (but he's 17 and gorgeous, after all!).

I'm glad she's learned that lesson - a lot sooner than I did.

It's nice to have a desirable spouse, but not TOO desirable. Sad to say that beauty, in itself, is a red flag. As you say, cheating is very much a crime of opportunity, and who has more opportunity than attractive people?

However, I also think that unattractive men and women can be prone to cheat in order to "prove" their desirability. Particularly short men, who often have a need to prove their masculinity by bedding lots of women.

So, you're best bet is an average-looking, or slightly above average looking spouse, of decent height, who isn't a pilot. :)

Thank you so much in the faith of pilot ethics, Lovelysoul.

I guess I am letting the side down and need to go find a few flight attendents to boink.

Sorry, flydye. I know there are many good ones. My own son flies, though not professionally (yet).

You have to admit, though, they have the opportunity to cheat without arousing as much suspicion. Anybody who travels a lot for work does.

However, lately, it seems that most of the once handsome pilots I know are mordidly obese...or suffering from prostate cancer at only 50. Please wear that ray-blocking apron they give you. I understand you get 3 times the radiation in the cockpit as on the ground.

I was just having this discusssion with my daughter, who recently ended a relationship with a kid who could be an Abercrombie model. She said she didn't think she would ever date someone "that good-looking again" because girls were always throwing themselves at him, and it was just too much stress.

From my experience with two very attractive and sexy women, I know exactly what it's like to be with someone and have other people always hitting on them. (With those two, I think I've exhausted my lifetime quota of head-turningly attractive women so that's not something I'll have to deal with again.)

As you say, cheating is very much a crime of opportunity, and who has more opportunity than attractive people?

Looks like we agree on that. I've had discussions with other people who feel that opportunity has nothing to do with it, that the only thing that matters is a person's ethics. I agree with them that, ultimately, the choice to cheat or not cheat comes down to ethics but I think that the more temptation a person has, the more likely they are to be faced with that choice over and over and over again and, as a consequence, will be more likely to give in at some point.

Off-topic-ish regarding pilot stereotypes: My brother is a pilot for a Comair, a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. He has been flying 50 seat regional jets for them for 10 years, makes $45,000 a year, has very little control over his schedule and time off (it was a huge pain for him to plan his own wedding), hasn't been promoted to captain despite fully qualified, and in fact has only barely escaped being furloughed or layed off many times due to the current state of the airlines. Oh, and he is also constantly stressed and exhausted. He still loves flying, and there are great perks for him and his family in the form of cheap standby travel. But I don't think people realize how rough many pilots have it these days.

Oh, and he is not a cheater. Frankly, I am more worried that his wife will stray sometime while he is gone. Or just get fed up with the non-glamorousness of it all and leave him. She is a little immature, seems decent at heart but I worry that she didn't think the marriage through. Alas, it was their choice.

Haven't heard anything from him about the supposed rampant cheating of his fellow pilots. But I admit that's something he's wouldn't talk to me about.

End off-topic interlude.

Not to derail, but these days a pilot really needs some game to get laid, unless he finds a lounge lizard who is looking for Mr. Right Now. But there are the flight attendents I suppose. And if you have a set route, that makes it easier.

But the job is no more accessible then any other person who does regular overnight travel, and I would say that one who actually meets the same people consistantly have it a bit easier.