Some Unenchanted Evenings
My boyfriend lacks romantic ambition. In our two years together, we've never gone out to dinner someplace I can wear a dress and heels, and he never brings me flowers or does anything for our anniversary or Valentine's Day. I've suggested he pick out lingerie he'd like to see me in and shown him how to set a romantic mood in our apartment. I've told him things like "Nothing makes me happier than fresh flowers, especially lilies," and tried flat-out asking him why he never brings me flowers. He said, "I was thinking about doing it yesterday, but then I forgot! But now that you've asked me, I don't want to because it will seem like I bought them just because you asked." When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like, so I always end up deciding what we do. I know he loves me (from his other actions); I just want some romance! It's as important to me as good sex and intimacy. Should I just accept this as his flaw?
--Roseless
You two have a fairy-tale romance. Unfortunately, it's the part of the fairy tale where two elves stand around scratching themselves in a mud hut.
You aren't asking for much. It would just be nice if Valentine's Day felt like something other than a Tuesday and if, on some random Tuesday, he'd stop at the grocery store and pick you up some flowers. Otherwise, even St. Paddy's Day can be a downer. You'll see him getting himself a green paper hat and drinking two-for-one green beers -- which stands in stark contrast to how he celebrates your anniversary: by getting amnesia.
You've done everything but hand him a pictorial to-do list complete with store addresses and closing times. So what's stopping him? Well, maybe because he doesn't need this flowers and chocolates business, he thinks you shouldn't, either. And if he starts doing sweet things for you, he'll have to keep doing them. And we all know how buying flowers and making reservations at a restaurant with white tablecloths is like breaking rocks in a quarry.
The problem is, as I wrote in a recent column, women evolved to feel a need for commitment cues from men. They didn't have cute cards back in the Stone Age, but a thoughtful giftie of fresh roadkill (some wildebeest that got trampled by elephants) probably made some ancestral lady's heart go pitter-patter. And that's the point here. Falling in love isn't like falling in a big bottomless hole (one tumble and you're done). There's maintenance required. Your boyfriend should care about doing the little things that make you happy. If he doesn't, maybe instead of going for "long walks on the beach" (planned by you), he should be making short trips out to his car to load up boxes of his stuff.
Explain that you need him to do these things so you feel loved, and explain that the only way he can really go wrong is by doing nothing. Even the smallest remembrances count -- like scrawling a heart on a Post-it and anchoring it with a chocolate or drawing "You 'N' Me Forever" on your dirty car window. You, in turn, need to be sure you show appreciation for whatever effort he does make -- even as he's seductively drinking Champagne out of your scuzzy old bedroom slipper.








> In our two years together, we've never gone out
> to dinner someplace I can wear a dress and heels
In two years, she couldn't pick up the telephone and make a reservation? Especially given her statement:
> I always end up deciding what we do
Snoopy at February 28, 2012 6:02 PM
"When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like, so I always end up deciding what we do. "
So this bit has me wondering. LW, do you in fact complain when he guesses wrong about what you wanted? It doesn't take many instances of this for a guy to decide it's not worth the trouble. Or are you just saying that he's afraid that's what will happen? If he is afraid of that, why? Did a prior GF treat him that way? Or maybe his mom? Or is he just paranoid about it? Might be worth asking, if you can get him to talk about it.
Cousin Dave at February 28, 2012 8:53 PM
My first impression, and second, is that I bet the BF has a totally different take on what is happening compared to the LW.
LauraGr at February 28, 2012 9:28 PM
He is showing you who he is. If you have had a calm, adult conversation about this, and by that I mean, not when you are hurt, not when he has not taken you out for your birthday, but when you are calm and know what you ask of him. If he or you start to retreat into defensivness, you both need to stop and take a breath.
My suggestion is one dress up date a month. One month you plan and pay for and the next month he plans and pays for. Make it easy, make the date on the same day each month. IF he agrees to this you both need to agree to not criticize the date. After a couple of months you will know if he can plan and carry through an enjoyable date with you. If he cannot do yourself and him a favor and break up. Life can only be miserable if you feel constantly shorted on romance and he feels nothing he does can please you.
Worthita at February 28, 2012 9:43 PM
When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like, so I always end up deciding what we do.
This makes me think that a GF has been a major complainer (this may not be the OP, he is just worried that she is like this previous GF).
we've never gone out to dinner someplace I can wear a dress and heels
Which must be what the OP wants she always decides what they are doing. But clearly not since it is being complained about.
And what place dis-allows women wearing a dress or heels?
I know he loves me (from his other actions)
Sounds like he is taking care of the "little things." So is just not doing all the "little stuff" or the right ones?
Explain that you need him to do these things so you feel loved, and explain that the only way he can really go wrong is by doing nothing. -- Amy
I doubt that is true based on the letter posted here.
I doubt the guy is going to significantly change. You might get him to remember your anniversary or something like that. Ultimately I think the OP has to decide what the guy is doing is enough or move on.
The Former Banker at February 28, 2012 11:17 PM
"When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like"
Indeed this is the key here. LW may be a bit of a solipsist.
A guy at February 29, 2012 1:07 AM
I think she needs to start doing more dishes and other chores around the house. She also needs to give him backrubs, without any pressure or expectation for romance. And she needs to listen--really *listen*--to him when he talks, so he feels more connected to her. If they have kids, she needs to give him a break, giving her a whole Saturday "off" to go get a shave or whatever. A "him" day.
When she brings this issue up, she needs to bring it up in terms of "How can I make romance more exciting, fun, and satisfying for you?" Because if a woman is not getting romance at home, it is likely because she is no good at romance herself or the man is to overwhelmed by his life to deal with one more task at the end of a long day. Seriously, he probably just wants to collapse into bed, not spend another ten-fifteen minutes dealing with her demands for romance.
Well, that is what they say about women, men, and sex, anyway, so I figure it must be also true for women, men and romance, right? >=D
More seriously, what a diamond world we live in, when we have time to seriously write and respond to letters saying "I don't get enough smoochie-talk, roses, and wine from my boyfriend, who otherwise is a really great guy." or "I only get sex once a week. Outrage!"
Our forebears worried about famine, plague, or the plains horsemen killing them and enslaving the surviving children.
I am going to hoist a glass tonight in appreciation for the preposterously coddled world I live in. Man, do I *not* appreciate it enough.
Spartee at February 29, 2012 4:50 AM
"he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like"
I see I'm not the only one who picked up on this. Bet she's hyper-critical.
NicoleK at February 29, 2012 4:58 AM
"When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like, so I always end up deciding what we do."
It's revealing when half of the first six commenters spot the same thing. If she really does complain about things she doesn't like (and we don't really know if that's true), then it's not much of a stretch to suppose he's given up trying to please her. After a while, "I don't like this," or "You made the wrong choice about that," starts to sound like, "I wish you were somebody else." And that hurts.
But again, we really don't know for sure. He may actually be kind of a lump.
Old RPM Daddy at February 29, 2012 5:00 AM
"Our forebears worried about famine, plague, or the plains horsemen killing them and enslaving the surviving children."
A substantial chunk of the world still worries about these things. That's why they call letters like this one "First World Problems."
Old RPM Daddy at February 29, 2012 5:03 AM
After a while, "I don't like this," or "You made the wrong choice about that," starts to sound like, "I wish you were somebody else." And that hurts.
But again, we really don't know for sure. He may actually be kind of a lump.
***
Could be both.
NicoleK at February 29, 2012 6:52 AM
LW sounds like "life ought to be a fairytale" type to me. This doesn't make her wrong, but it means she is with the wrong person. I am sure there are men out there who like to lavish the woman they are with, with this kind of attention, but this guy is not one of them. They are mismatched and will only make each other miserable in the long run.
As for whose "fault" it is that he is like this; well that could come from anywhere. He might have seen his dad struggle to please his mother and just assume that is how it is. Or, as someone else pointed out, it might have been a prior girlfriend. Who knows? The bottom-line is still the same; if you aren't getting what you need while you are dating, cut your losses and move on.
Sheepmommy at February 29, 2012 7:28 AM
I sympathize with the guy. I had a similar circumstance where I used to get her surprise presents about once a month, but more than half the time I got a complaint about the present. It wasn't romantic enough or this or that. I also used to pick out restaurants, but most of the time the first FIVE on my list were not places she wanted to go even if she had liked them before. So, ok, you don't like the presents I get you or the restaurants I pick I'm not really going to bother again, for now reward. On the woman's side I would say: There are many difficult things you have to do to keep a relationship going. Buying flowers and a card evey now and then are the relatively easy things. For heaven's sake at least do the easy ones. And of course I don't know whether the letter writer was in fact appropriately appreciative. Maybe she was and the boyfriend is a lump.
Kevin at February 29, 2012 8:13 AM
All these letters seem to have the same theme. Lady, it's been two years. This guy is not going to buy you flowers or take you out to dinner. If you want romance, this is not the guy for you. Either you like the whole package this guy offers, or you don't. The end.
kf at February 29, 2012 9:37 AM
Just thinking about having to wear a dress and heels to eat makes me want to put on my jammies and take a nap.
Pirate Jo at February 29, 2012 10:23 AM
Last week I saw a young woman at Steak n Shake wearing a dress and heels. Wear whatever pleases you.
Fräulein Gretel at February 29, 2012 10:33 AM
My first impression, and second, is that I bet the BF has a totally different take on what is happening compared to the LW.
This is probably true for everyone who has ever written to Amy.
MonicaP at February 29, 2012 1:23 PM
MonicaP- I agree. I meant more that the BF would likely comment that the LW is frequently disappointed in his efforts at romance when he doesn't follow the precise script she has dictated. Or didn't dictate but held closely in her mind for comparison.
A whole lotta "can't win" for him.
LauraGr at February 29, 2012 1:33 PM
I meant more that the BF would likely comment that the LW is frequently disappointed in his efforts at romance when he doesn't follow the precise script she has dictated. Or didn't dictate but held closely in her mind for comparison.
Perhaps. Amy's advice about showing appreciation for his attempts, even if they are way off the mark of what she wants, is important. Positive reinforcement helps.
On the other hand, she might not be critical at all. He could just be making excuses for why he's not doing romantic things that would make her happy. Or he could have been burned by that behavior before.
MonicaP at February 29, 2012 1:45 PM
"he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like"
I see I'm not the only one who picked up on this. Bet she's hyper-critical.
You guys are often quick to suspect the LW but Amy has long exchanges with them before publishing her advice. The fact that she did not tell the LW that she was asking for too much or hint that she might be critical suggests that this is not the problem in this case...
Astra at February 29, 2012 1:52 PM
Maybe. Maybe not. The LW is very concerned about herself and her expectations. There could be many reasons the BF is not taking her to restaurants where she can play dress up. Maybe he cannot afford it. Or the clothes necessary to wear to such a place. Or maybe he has to play suit and tie at work and would rather not be obligated to wear such into the night. Or maybe her expectation is he will take her to nice places and she can reciprocate and show how balanced she is by taking him to casual (and cheaper) places.
I think if it is important to her then she should make the arrangements instead of expecting him to do so.
Personally, I despise having to get dressed up. Doing so is a burden and it guarantees that I will be not happy. I can fake pleasant for an evening, but that is the limit of my tolerance. If hubby truly wanted to get spiffed up and go out, it damn well better be infrequent and pretty meaningful. Luckily for me, he is even more strongly against playing dress up just for shits and giggles than I am.
LauraGr at February 29, 2012 4:26 PM
I like spartees response best so far
lujlp at February 29, 2012 7:31 PM
I sympathize with the LW because I'm in much the same position. When my husband and I were dating, he was very romantic. He would surprise me with things, give me flowers, all those things guys do when they're trying to win a woman. We've been married six years and it feels like the man I married is dead sometimes.
Husband and I both work, and about the same number of hours. I, however, am in charge of all the household chores, including the yard. I get up every morning and fix him breakfast and a sack lunch for work. I make sure there's something set up for dinner for when he gets home (because I'll be at work when he eats dinner). I stick little "I love you" notes in his lunch. I rub his neck or head just about every night in bed. I do not refuse sex, and I regularly initiate it. If it were up to me, we'd be having sex every night.
I do all these things for him, and he takes them completely for granted. It's no longer a case of him recognizing that I'm doing a lot that most women wouldn't "lower" themselves to do, but that I'm doing what I "should" be doing for him.
We used to go out, and the outings became less and less frequent. I would suggest an outing (knowing we had the money) and he would say he didn't feel like it. Then he'd spend all night on his PS2. Three years in a row, Valentine's and our anniversary passed without a card, flowers, or any celebration other than him initiating sex (which yes, I did).
I am aware that I am not perfect. Sometimes I don't get everything done, sometimes I'm unpleasant and I complain, sometimes I don't remember to fix dinner before I go to work, or I don't get laundry put away, or any number of things I can look at as growth areas. But I do know that I am working very hard to be a good wife, and I mostly succeed.
So, while it's entirely possible that the LW is whiny bitch who complains about everything, it's also possible that she's tried her damnedest to be a good girlfriend and she's with a guy that doesn't treat her very well.
The Original Kit at March 1, 2012 5:51 AM
That first sentence is such a set-up!
"My boyfriend lacks romantic ambition."
Obviously. He settled for you.
She could also learn to find her reassurance from the most obvious place: He's still there.
Patrick at March 1, 2012 6:41 AM
I think if it is important to her then she should make the arrangements instead of expecting him to do so.
But her point is that she wants him to take some initiative. It's not terribly romantic if she has to make the reservations and buy her own flowers.
People do things they don't really want to do all the time in relationships, so asking him to go out to a nice restaurant or buy her some flowers every once in awhile is not unreasonable. When it comes to sex, I bet most of the regular commenters here would agree that women should have sex with their partners even if they're not particularly in the mood. Imagine if the situation were reversed, and every time he wanted to have sex, he had to initiate, and her response was, "I don't feel like it" or "I don't want to because I'm afraid you won't think I'm a good lover" or "Oh, allll riiiiight. If I have to."
In the end, her question is whether she should accept this as his flaw. The answer, no matter what she decides, is "yes," but she's also going to need to decide whether she's going to:
1) Try to get what she needs from him. He might be willing to change if he loves her and knows how important this is to her.
2) Break up with him and get it from someone else.
3) Give up and accept that she won't get what she wants here.
4) Give up and stew silently or bitch and moan constantly.
MonicaP at March 1, 2012 6:42 AM
So it is only romantic if he follows her precise script and then pays for it?
Romance should not be measured in dollars or last for just a meal or a few days (for cut flowers). She is looking at STUFF as being romantic. That is very greedy/needy.
How does he treat her every day? With respect? Affection? Does he make sure her car gets the oil changed on time or that her tires don't run flat? Not romantic enough?
Don't you find it telling that all her examples of expected romantic behaviour from him involve him shelling out?
LauraGr at March 1, 2012 11:05 AM
Sounds like this guy has life figured out...why don't you?
Shallow material gestures, err i mean "romance", drain your pocketbook and substitute for genuine caring.
Instead of complaining about him maybe you should be learning from him.
Do him the enormous favor of leaving so he can go find a girl who isn't trying to change him FOR THE WORSE.
TheRealPeter at March 1, 2012 1:58 PM
@The Original Kit wow if that isn't the saddest thing I've read today! Have you tried not doing some of those things you always do, and seeing if he even notices? Being taken for granted sucks.
sofar at March 1, 2012 2:26 PM
I don't trust that the LW here is being quite honest.
I suspect she's a serial complainer. If he gets her flowers, they're the wrong kind.
If he picks a spot to go out, she doesn't like X or can't wear what she wanted to that night at that place.
Like the woman who complains that the man doesn't ever do the dishes, but then is equally unhappy that he didn't do them "right" when he tried it.
She makes a point of saying she knows he cares from the other things he does, so that suggests to me that he's doing what he should otherwise, the oil change, taking out the garbage, the door holding, the sitting and listening...
Fact is from my perspective here, she wants a romantic story, he wants a life.
Maybe, MAYBE, he is just lacking in romantic impulse, but I agree with the poster who suggested it was rather suspect that all her expectations of a romantic script resulted in him shelling out.
Robert at March 2, 2012 4:16 AM
We don't get to see the complete correspondence between Amy and the LW. I make some assumptions based on Amy's responses to the LWs. The fact that Amy didn't go after the LW for being a spoiled brat or the BF for being a jerk says to me that she didn't see evidence of either. She provided an explanation of what is going on and some advice. No need for drama there.
Women (in general) want romantic gestures. Men (in general) may not see what's so important about them. Neither side is wrong, just different.
Last week my husband thought I was having a bad day. He bought me some carnations at the grocery store and put them in vase in the living room for me to find. Every time I see them I'm reminded what a wonderful guy he is and how lucky I am to be married to him (35 years last month).
Most men would love to know how to make their wife or GF feel lucky to have them. Well, the LW is telling her BF how to do it. Hello!
It's possible that the BF feels he's being handed a script and doesn't want to follow it because it feels artificial. That's understandable but self-defeating. If my husband said he'd like more compliments, the first couple of times I complimented him would feel artificial. I might even have to write myself a reminder to look for things to compliment him for. Then I'd have to make sure to follow through. Oh my goodness, it wouldn't be natural!
But after that it would become natural. I'd also get to enjoy the payoff: a happier husband. Saying I couldn't do it because he asked would be like saying I couldn't make steak for dinner because he asked.
rm at March 2, 2012 7:04 AM
Also, the LW didn't complain that her BF doesn't spend enough money on her. We don't know what their finances are. Based on the letter, they don't appear to be having financial problems. But in any case, her letter was about things she wants him to do, not how much money she wants him to spend. If someone can afford to spend money on their partner and never does, it can start to look like they don't care. But even if you can afford the big gestures, the small inexpensive ones are sometimes even better.
A card costs a couple of dollars. Or you can print one out on a computer. Or send a (personalized) one online. Or better yet, write a note or a letter. Flowers cost a couple of dollars at the grocery store. Mix them up with an occasional bouquet of long-stemmed roses (IF you have long-stemmed rose money). What really matters is the love with which you present them and the fact that you went to the trouble to do it.
If the LW wants to go someplace she can dress up and they can't afford it, either one of them could make a nice dinner at home and they could dress up for that. She apparently does own a dress and heels, so she's set. If the BF doesn't own dress-up clothes, he can at least wash his jeans and wear the shirt with the fewest holes in it.
If they can afford to go someplace nice occasionally and the BF just doesn't feel like it, well, when you love someone you sometimes go places and do things you aren't interested in. I go to the train museum with my husband. I'm done in 30 seconds ("Yep, that's a train all right") but I don't complain about staying as long as he wants to. It makes him happy. Making him happy doing something that doesn't hurt me makes my life better. Um, why wouldn't I want that? I also go to his business events and do my best to be charming whether I "feel" like it or not. It's part of caring about someone.
As for the LW asking the BF to pick out lingerie he'd like to see her in, that offer is pure gold. She didn't even say she wanted him to pay for it. Just pick it out. If he doesn't even want to do that, does he have a pulse?
rm at March 2, 2012 7:16 AM
@The Original Kit - What a sad post. Have you tried talking to your husband about your situation? If you have, then as sofar said, you might try skipping some of the things you normally do for him and seeing if he even notices.
rm at March 2, 2012 7:22 AM
Sofar, RM, I didn't bring this up to get sympathy or even advice, though I appreciate the thought. I've done all the things you're supposed to do in this situation without real success. I've decided that I would rather stay with my husband for my own reasons and because I do know he loves me, and I love him.
I was merely trying to provide some perspective to the folks whose first response is to assume that the woman in the letter is a whiny, bitchy troll who is 100% at fault for the problems in her relationship.
Sometimes you can't trade in your old clunker for a shiny new Corvette. That doesn't stop you from wanting to get the clunker running as well as it can. It may never go zero-to-sixty in 4.2 seconds, but it gets you where you need to go.
The Original Kit at March 2, 2012 11:01 AM
I am not sure about fault. I just find it suspect that her wish list for romantic acts from him all involve him paying. If she pays it is "not romantic" apparently.
When there is payment rendered, it is not romance, it is a transaction.
Just sayin...
LauraGr at March 2, 2012 11:25 AM
"I just find it suspect that her wish list for romantic acts from him all involve him paying. If she pays it is "not romantic" apparently."
I don't see where it says he has to pay for these things. She said she ends up deciding what to do. She didn't say who pays. We simply don't know how much money they have or how they split expenses. They might take turns paying for things, or pool their money, or she may pay.
Most of the things the LW mentions are (or can be) inexpensive. All they really take is a little effort.
Amazon has a bouquet of "Royal Summer Lilies Flowers with Vase" for $19.99. I've seen them cheaper than that locally. I don't know exactly what the LW means by setting a romantic mood in their apartment, but I know what I would mean and I can pretty much do it for free.
I used to have a friend who was married. Both spouses worked and earned good salaries. My friend's husband spent every bit of their disposable income on himself. He had a huge wardrobe, endless toys, and expensive hobbies. She had clothes that were barely good enough to wear to work and "hobbies" like reading library books and cleaning house. They were almost bankrupt and he was still whining because he couldn't buy himself special shoes to match each outfit. Like Dave Barry says, I am not making this up.
It would make as much sense to assume the BF spends all his (their?) money on himself, as it does to assume she expects him to pay for everything. But I think if either one were the case, it would have been reflected in Amy's advice.
rm at March 2, 2012 2:27 PM
RM, I'm not buying that. If she wants to get dressed up and go out. All she has to to is get dressed and go out. If she wants him to go along . All she has to to do is let him know her plans and invite him along.
She wants him to initiate these things when he apparently is not inclined to do so. She has written the list of preferred activities she desires from him. That is not romance. That is scriptwriting.
She considers him to be flawed (per the last sentence).
I consider HER to be flawed.
She doesn't just want to go out in heels (and what's stopping her anyway?).
She doesn't just want to go out wearing heels and in the company of her guy.
She wants him to WANT to do these things AND initiate everything.
She doesn't actually seem to care what he wants.
LauraGr at March 2, 2012 3:23 PM
"She wants him to WANT to do these things AND initiate everything."
She didn't say she wants him to initiate everything. She wants him to initiate some things, some of the time.
As for her wanting him to WANT to be romantic, we don't know that she wants that either. She does want him to make some effort to DO romantic things. I assume she doesn't want him to do things he hates, so in that sense she probably does wish he could come to a point where he "wants" to do at least some of them, if only to make her happy. And that brings us back to: Sometimes you make a good-faith effort to do things for people you love, that might not be your own first choice. If making a reservation for a nice restaurant seems like hell on earth to you, you suck it up and do it anyway.
rm at March 2, 2012 7:22 PM
Her letter said that "In our two years together, we've never gone out to dinner someplace I can wear a dress and heels,"
TWO YEARS! Seriously? Pick up the flippin' phone and make reservations wherever you want. Stop trying to manipulate him.
If she wants to wear heels and a dress, then she should. She should get off her romantic dream cloud and call for reservations. If she wants these things, she should make it so. If it bothers her not to play dress up, then play.
How about she wears heels and a dress and goes out with her girlfriends to rock the town? She is hinging her dissatisfaction on his not catering to her whims. It makes her sound like a brat.
Her priority is her.
How about she finds out why he doesn't want to do this? Maybe he has good reasons. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe she doesn't give a hoot about his opinion one way or the other. Or so it seems.
LauraGr at March 2, 2012 10:31 PM
"How about she wears heels and a dress and goes out with her girlfriends to rock the town?"
Because it's sort of hard to have a romantic evening with your BF if he isn't there? Or maybe she could pick up another guy and get all romantic with him.
This isn't about the LW having some weird fixation on wearing heels. It's about her wanting some romance with the guy she's already got.
I've seen a fair amount of advice to couples. One suggestion is to ask each other what they'd like in different areas, such as sex. And then, unless one person's request makes the other one run out the door screaming, make a good-faith effort to follow through.
It's possible the very idea of wandering into a florist and picking up a couple of lilies strikes terror into the heart of the BF. It's also possible he's violently opposed to having an occasional meal at a nice restaurant. It just doesn't seem very likely. (Assuming he's a functioning grownup.)
As I posted earlier, this is about as onerous as my occasionally accompanying my husband to the train museum, a business event, or something else that doesn't just thrill me. I go anyway and I don't play the martyr.
If the BF buying a couple of flowers for the LW is JUST TOO MUCH to ask, either he's not a functioning adult or he's just not into her.
Another suggestion I've seen is for women to initiate sex at least occasionally, because even if a woman agrees to sex every time her partner initiates it, if she never initiates, he may feel she isn't really that interested in him.
The LW is asking her BF to initiate romance sometimes for the same reason.
In the end the BF either cares enough to make some effort or he doesn't. Might as well find out and be done with it.
rm at March 3, 2012 1:29 PM
RM, thank you for explaining that so well. I've been trying to find a way to articulate those thoughts.
A woman saying "I want my guy to be romantic" is as reasonable as a guy saying "I want my girl to have sex with me as more than a motionless hole in which to place my penis." Men want their women to put some effort into it, and so do women. If one partner or the other doesn't show any initiative, then it's a lopsided relationship.
The Original Kit at March 3, 2012 4:48 PM
My father used to like to joke with my mother that he'd take her out more often, but every time he takes her to a really nice place, she drops the tray.
I'm not making any sort of point here, just thought the joke was apropos.
Joke aside, my father is a man and, therefore, wears a tie and takes his wife out from time to time. It's not a painful experience for him to wear a wear a suit and tie because he's not a boy. Men wear ties. That's what men wear.
What the fuck is with young people these days?
whistleDick at March 3, 2012 11:00 PM
She has a gamma. She wants at least a greater Beta.
This man is never going to be the leader she wants. Most women don't like making decisions, and they certainly don't want to be making all the decisions in a relationship.
LW is expecting her man to make a decision, and he won't. Because he's too wishy-washy and approval seeking.
Someone send him to Vox for training, stat!
brian at March 4, 2012 10:03 AM
You guys are not making apt comparisons.
She can wear nice clothes at any time, with or without any planning by him. She can wear them to go out. She can wear them to stay in. He has not stopped her from wearing any damn thing she wants to wear at any time. So how is it HIS FAULT that she can't wear her clothes?
Most of you agree that a lover should reciprocate sexual advances some of the time. But you don't think LW should need to initiate "romantic" dinners out any of the time? Because she said there has been none in two years. So you expect him to do it some of the time and her to do it none of the time? That is reciprocating?
She is not saying he doesn't do his share of inviting, she is saying nothing happens and it is all his fault. His "flaw" as she stated.
If she was initiating, and he never did, that would be a different story. But she's not doing it either.
LauraGr at March 4, 2012 12:53 PM
rm- think about it this way (using your train museum model).
Scenario 1-Hubby: I want to go to the train museum.
Wife: Okay. Have fun, dear (letting him go do his thing he enjoys).
Scenario 2- Hubby: I want to go to the train museum. Will you go with me?
Wife: Okay, dear. (because she is adult enough to suck it up and accompany him even though she doesn't enjoy it and he was polite enough to ask rather than demand or assume) --I recommend this one--
Scenario 3- Hubby (wants to go to the train museum with wifey but doesn't go since she doesn't buy the tickets for him and make the offer so he stews with resentment)
Wifey- (doesn't know they are having a mental conversation and she is failing at romance)
Scenario 4- Hubby :If you really loved me, you'd just KNOW that I love going to the train museum. You'd buy me tickets! You'd buy me a conductor's hat! You lack romance! (writes to advice columnist complaining about wife's flaws)
Wife: ...
Scenario 5- Wife- Honey, Let's go to the train museum on Saturday, I know how much you enjoy that.
Hubby- (Is pleased)
Now which one most closely resembles the LW? Which one most closely resembles you and your spouse?
In almost every scenario, the person that actually wants to do the activity makes the arrangements.
LW is using passive aggressive behaviour. It is not cool.
The way to get what you (or the LW in this case) wants is to be straightforward. Not attempt mental manipulation. Nor judge him on some hidden "romance scale" that so far he has only registered on as not romantic enough.
LauraGr at March 4, 2012 1:49 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/02/some-unenchante.html#comment-3024612">comment from LauraGrGregg just got us plane tickets for Paris for the Fall. And fixed the little weird characters appearing on my site. I mentioned neither to him today, but he knows I love (am addicted to) Paris and knows those little characters have been bothering me.
Likewise, last week, Gregg did this interview of Elmore at the Grosse Pointe library. I called him the week before and said I'd set aside Thursday late afternoon to go over his notes with him if he wanted (he didn't ask -- I offered). I then photographed my radio notes (the style I do them in, which is easy to read and go through on the fly) and emailed them to him, and then wrote him an email with a bunch of tips from what I've learned from hosting radio and moderating panels at book festivals. Again, he asked for none of this. I just wanted to help him as much as I could.
If you're with someone, don't you know what they like, what amuses them, delights them? Just do it!
Amy Alkon
at March 4, 2012 2:51 PM
I'm dismayed that so many people assume the letter writer is at fault. I had a boyfriend like hers once: never a birthday card, a Valentine's Day card, not a word of thanks for anything I did for him. Dates were pizza and a movie. (Would a princess stick around for this?) He wasn't a poor guy who'd done his best to please me, he was a vindictive, passive-aggressive SOB.
The LW's boyfriend may or may not be like this; we simply don't know from the information given.
Lori at March 4, 2012 3:32 PM
Actually, we do know.
When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like, so I always end up deciding what we do. I know he loves me (from his other actions);
When he does choose, she complains. When he doesn't choose, she complains. Yet he still shows her that he loves her from his other actions. And she is not satisfied.
LauraGr at March 4, 2012 5:03 PM
He sounds to me like he's full of excuses.
Lori at March 4, 2012 5:28 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/02/some-unenchante.html#comment-3026055">comment from LoriWhen somebody loves you, they do little things to delight you. Example from yesterday: Gregg was at the Farmer's Market, so he went to Monsieur Marcel to get me my weekly chocolate ration (I either eat a scoop of chocolate gelato once a week or a small chocolate bar). (I didn't know this until later, that he'd got me the chocolate.)
I'd left a magazine in his car on Friday night, and he brought it in for me and handed it to me. It felt funny -- like there was something inside. And there was...that chocolate bar...from Michel Cuizel in Paris, imported. And the way he gave it to me was a fun surprise -- and made me laugh. It's little things like that that show a person is thinking about you. And that delighting you matters.
Amy Alkon
at March 4, 2012 8:56 PM
The assumption is that she's passive aggressive. There's nothing in her letter or Amy's response to suggest that, and we know that Amy is good at ferreting out PA people.
The writer says they haven't gone out to nice dinners, and everyone is saying that obviously it's her fault because she could make the reservation and he'd go, OBVIOUSLY. Well, from my own experience, I've tried to get my hubby out to nice places and he says no every time. Same excuses, too, which boiled down were: "I don't want to dress in anything fancier than a t-shirt without holes and I'd rather spend that $100 on more Warhammer toys for myself."
Then there's the flowers thing, and apparently she's a horrible bitch for wanting flowers because OBVIOUSLY he used to get her flowers but she always complained.
Look, about four years ago, my husband had not planned ahead for V-day, which was not a big deal to me. I think it's rather a silly holiday.
However, he talked up how great our V-day was going to be, so I got really excited for this special day and all the things he said we were going to do. And then he made no plans.
So at 6 o'clock on Valentine's afternoon, he's trying to find flowers. He managed to get the last bunch of flowers at one of the groceries around here, but they were wilted and I am allergic to the flowers he got. He presented them to me with a mumbled string of reasons why it wasn't his fault. I thanked him for his effort but told him I was allergic to the flowers, so I couldn't keep them near me.
Then, instead of the nice dinner out I was promised (he made no reservations and couldn't get a table at any restaurant in town), I got to make us dinner while he sulked and complained that I didn't appreciate his effort.
That was the last V-day we "celebrated."
The letter writer might have actual valid complaints here. She might be frustrated with someone she loves, and she might wish that things could be more romantic. There's nothing to suggest that she's being overly needy. She wants him to take her someplace nice. She wants to be treated like she's important. What she wants is not out-of-the-box weird, or too demanding, or anything like that.
It is reasonable to think that a man raised in modern American society would know that taking his lady out is part of his job. It is also reasonable to think she's asked, even tried to set things up. But when asking your guy out for a nice dinner is met with the kind of response expected at "can you carry the garbage," it takes the fun out of going.
The Original Kit at March 5, 2012 6:11 AM
But when asking your guy out for a nice dinner is met with the kind of response expected at "can you carry the garbage," it takes the fun out of going.
or...
But when asking your gal out for a nice dinner is met with the kind of response expected at "you did it all wrong" it takes the fun out of going.
LauraGr at March 5, 2012 8:59 AM
Not passive aggressive? Did you not read the post soon before yours by LauraGr?
When I encourage him to take initiative in planning a night out, he'll say that he's worried he'll choose wrong and that I complain about things I don't like, so I always end up deciding what we do.
I was married to such a woman. She complained about me not being romantic. I'm not naturally romantic and never was (and made that clear when we met and she said that was okay), so when I was, it took a real effort. Yet, without fail, every time I was romantic or did something just for her or we went on trips, she complained and criticized, sometimes extremely harshly.
I don't like Valentine's day, but soon before our divorce, I spent extra time picking out a specific flower and having it arranged just right with a nice card. When I brought it home, she barely responded. At marriage counseling the next day, she stunned the counseling and me by going off on a five minute riff about how I was a clueless asshole for buying the wrong kind of flower. Looking back, I now realize that's when our marriage truly ended for good.
Joe at March 6, 2012 7:47 AM
>>When he does choose, she complains. When he doesn't choose, she complains. Yet he still shows her that he loves her from his other actions. And she is not satisfied.
LW needs real problems in her life.
Hunger, earthquakes, pestilence...
Mere Mortal at March 6, 2012 9:05 AM
I tend to notice people often learn from example. This letter seems to be one-sided. What does the LW do to/for HIM for romance? Does she buy HIM little gifts? Does she try little romantic things for HIM? If someone sends me a gift, pops me a small inspiring note, or otherwise shows me affection; I tend to respond in kind. Keep it up and it becomes a habit. Maybe he doesn't do all these little things because it's a one-way street and her constant focus on it has made it more of a demand or obligation than a romantic thing for him.
Phil (aka Whykham) at March 22, 2012 8:37 AM
Holy crap...has NOBODY picked up on the "I was thinking about doing it yesterday, but then I forgot! But now that you've asked me, I don't want to because it will seem like I bought them just because you asked" line from the hubby? That. Is. Friggin'. Priceless.
This woman just wants to feel appreciated and special to him now and then (it's not about wearing heels, people). But no matter what she says or does (she's asked him to choose the lingerie she wears for him fer chrissakes), he's got an excuse to Deny, Accuse, and Reverse Victim with Offender (DARVO) at every opportunity.
"You complain when I make a quarter-assed attampt." "It won't seem genuine." "I forgot." What's next...the dog ate the roses I bought you?
He's got his girl, so thank god he's through with all that wooing crap. He just wants her to leave him alone.
She should. Permanently.
wallawallawanda at August 18, 2012 9:26 PM
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