Ouch.

Poor bastard.

Point him to Roissy and MMSL, ASAP!

"But what do I do about a woman whose rage can last for several hours to a month or more?"

Next time she leaves the house, change the locks, put her sh-t on the curb, and file the divorce papers. And don't take any such abusive sh-t from the next woman you date.

"I confess, I'm a conflict avoider and in counseling for it."

Ah, so you already set up your excuse: I'm scared. Yeah, getting scared can happen when you stand up for yourself, whether you are 10 or 50. Get over it, and start standing up for yourself. It is simple, but not easy.

"Dude, your wife is a bitch—Love, God"

My ex was like that. I'd ask him that if he thought I was such a bad person, why didn't he just leave? He responded because I love you. Run away. She's toxic.

This woman sounds out of her mind, or just plain vicious, or both. Get a good lawyer, and get out.

You are in an abusive relationship.
It will only get worse and it's a matter of time before it escalates. Rage fits, especially where you have to apologize to smooth things over are often a precursor to actual violence.
Leave - go somewhere where you will be safe and cut contact. Even after you leave expect things to get worse before they get better.
Abusers don't let go of their victims easily unless they find another one.

Sorry you find yourself in this position.

"If I say 'Then why don't you leave me?' she says 'Because I love you.'"

The subtext to that is, "I'm the only one who possibly could, so you'll take what I dish out, Buster!" Reverend, it's not supposed to be like this. Was she like that before marriage? There's no reason to put up with that kind of treatment.

"whiff of adultery" lol Really, just a whiff?

Based on the available facts, I will agree with LS in her suggestion that the issue of adultery is greater than a "whiff" level. If the wife is not already engaging in an affair with the ex, she is *this* close (finger and thumb pinched very near) to being there.

Women romantically and sexually interested in their husbands do not risk that attachment in the way he describes in this letter. When you catch dishonest, sociopathic people engaging in stigma-carrying behaviors, and then call them on it, they tend to do what the wife did here: (1) get very angry and self-righteously indignant, and (2) instantly turn it back on the person pointing out the behavior. "How DARE you question my integrity!", tends to be the first reaction, followed by imposition of punishments for even bringing it up. And crucially, she provides no substantive response to the facts and circumstances strongly suggesting that her integrity is, in fact, open to challenge at this point.

When you encounter this sort of person, even showing them video of the improper behavior will often not shake their outrage at being accused of something tawdry. All evidence against them is insufficient or improper, and therefore they are not required to justify themselves to you. Etc.

Such people will never come around and admit they stole, lied, hurt, etc. Rare instances where they do, they will immediately justify their behavior by blaming the person harmed. In their minds, it simply never happened, and if it did, it is *your* fault, not theirs.

What is even more interesting, however, is that if circumstances arise where they can benefit from bragging about their prior antics, they will. So at some level, it is all an act. They know they did it, and feel some satisfaction about it. They just engage in all sorts of social standing posturing to maximize social benefits and minimize costs of their behavior.

You simply have to love sociopathic tendencies like that. So fascinating to see in action.

Anyway, enough meandering about human nature. This guy must immediately drop his need for her approval or interest. (He seems needy.) He must develop his plan to dump her. Where to live. How his income will need to adjust. Etc. He then should implement those plans. He will, like so many like him, not do any of that, I predict. Instead, he will keep taking her sh-t, wondering why he cannot get a mean person to be a nice person. And the world will keep turning, never noticing or caring that he is spending his life trying to catch air in his hands.

Pastor, you need to run and run fast. If things are as you describe, then there is nothing good for you with this woman.

If you stand up to a person like this, and he or she leaves you, she was going to anyway.

When you catch dishonest, sociopathic people engaging in stigma-carrying behaviors, and then call them on it, they tend to do what the wife did here: (1) get very angry and self-righteously indignant, and (2) instantly turn it back on the person pointing out the behavior. "How DARE you question my integrity!", tends to be the first reaction, followed by imposition of punishments for even bringing it up.

Holy crap, yes. Stuck, your wife is using her rage as a distraction. When the rage is going on, she can feel indignant that you would EVER suggest such a thing, and she is successfully distracting you from the fact that she is probably having an affair. And she can justify anything she says or does by saying she was just so angry and hurt.

And the terrible thing for you is that she probably really does love you, in the broken way she is capable of loving you. My sister has BPD, and this sounds exactly like her.

She isn't going to change without a lot of help and motivation, and maybe not even then. You didn't mention kids in your letter, so I'm going to assume you don't have any. Just get out while you can.

"And the world will keep turning, never noticing or caring that he is spending his life trying to catch air in his hands."

This is insight at its gossamer finest. You've hit this succinctly, Spartee.

I agree wholeheartedly with the thread concensus and with Amy's verdict for LW to implement testicular fortitude or GTFO. This, as it stands, is not a marriage so much as it is a psychological terrorism site.

"whiff of adultery"

Is that kind of like how 25 dismembered bodies stored in a port-a-john for the ENTIRE hot Georgia summer has a 'whiff' of rotting meat?

News flash Rev, you have a psycho on your hands. File for a divorce and a restraining order NOW TODAY THIS VERY INSTANT before you wind up being shot in the back while you sleep and are subjected to a post mortem transfermation into a spousal rapist and abuser

Was there nothing in the former pastor's sermons about avoiding temptation?

A friend of mine is a devout Christian and (I guess) a hot topic among adult Christian men is "what happened to our balls?".

He loaned me a fun book called "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge (BUY YOUR COPY NOW THROUGH AMY'S AMAZON LINK) and apparently, confusing "doormat" with "Christian" is not uncommon for these guys.

Anyway, LW, your wife is cruel beyond belief. Adultery is bad enough, but rubbing it in your face and pouting when she doesn't get to bang her boyfriend is psychotic.

Don't every touch her again, God knows where she's been or if she's been using protection. Dump her. And stop saying 'yes' to everyone.

Mean people suck.

LW knows his wife is toxic. It is apparently unavoidably obvious. Not so certain what he intends to do about it. A person cannot change another person, they may only change themself. Knowing that, what will he do?

I hope he decides to live his life and chooses to free himself of the meanyface wife. I think that bell is rung and he should accept and move on.

I think that the wife should be with her husband on Christmas and not spending time with a ex-boyfriend. The pastor was right for telling his wife that she commieted adultery, and she should not have pouted and went on in his face for him telling her the truth. She thinks if she pouts enought that you will let her go on and be with her ex-boyfriend if you really love her. I aggree with the rest of the comments that have been posted you should leave this abusive relationship.

"And the world will keep turning, never noticing or caring that he is spending his life trying to catch air in his hands."

Two years ago, when I finally started realizing that I was in an emotionally abusive marriage, I started doing internet searches on passive aggressiveness and emotional abuse. The information that helped me the most was how abused people *feel* - they feel like they are going crazy, and they feel like they are fighting smoke. I kept that in mind over the next several months as I tried to convince my now ex-husband that he was being abusive (his abuse was extraordinarily subtle) and that he needed to get help. It didn't work, of course, and I had to leave him to preserve my sanity. The stress from being married to him for three years took a very serious toll on my health.

I am much, much happier and healthier now, in spite of reduced circumstances and dependence on the charity of friends. It's a miracle if an abuser ever changes; there's something about that behavior that is remarkably resistant to therapy (or negotiation, or pleas of love/support, etc). The best remedy is for the abused to walk away and to sever as many ties as possible. Reverend, I hope you are open to the possibility that your life will be much better without your wife in it. You aren't stuck; it only feels that way because you can't imagine your life being anything other than it is now.

Sir,

I've been through a similar situation. All those that are busy calling your wife evil and so forth are likely not hitting the mark. You know she isn't evil. You know that all people are created in the image of God. Your wife is a beautiful person. You know her better than we do and you are likely bristling at the insults toward her.

Nothing about my above paragraph is meant to be sarcastic. You know that your wife has a beautiful soul and is, in fact, made in the perfect image of God.

That being said, divorce can be a fantastic thing. This also sounds snarky, but it's true. I love my ex-wife more than anyone in the world and I realized years ago that her idea of divorce was a really darn good idea.

You likely feel that a divorce would mean that you've failed in your oath to both your wife and to God. You likely feel that a divorce would mean, not only failure, but disgrace, bitterness, and loneliness. If done right, and you have the tools to do it right, divorce can be a fantastic and wonderful thing.

Man, a year from now you'll wonder why you didn't do it earlier. You won't feel lonely, bitter, or cold. You'll feel free. You'll be able to explore what it is like to be you on this beautiful Earth and you'll even feel closer to your God. You'll also be able to continue to love and honor your ex-wife and appreciate the years that you had together.

Yes, it's that good and it doesn't involve vilifying your wife or blaming anyone for anything.

Get divorced. You'll love it and your family will thrive because of it. Just keep the tenants of your faith throughout the process and don't try to one up your wife or convince others who the real bad guy was. Never bad mouth her to anyone, ever.

Dear LW,

All your conflict avoidance has done is invite more abuse into your life. You need to talk to your counselor about the steps you need to take to get divorced. You are being abused very abused.

Anyone would think your wife is committing adultery, I absolutely think she is. You need to get out before this gets worse. If nothing was not going to happen then why couldn't she go over with the son there?

When I was thinking about getting a divorce my ex would lie to my face and pout and get silent when confronted with facts. My therapist at the time called it crazy making. It makes you doubt everything. Once you are free of this abuse you will be amazed at how much better you feel. Physical ailments will start getting better suddenly the world will look lighter. I am not saying it will not be hard. I am saying it will be worth it.

You know she isn't evil. You know that all people are created in the image of God. Your wife is a beautiful person.

Thats probably what Matthew Winkler thought up until the moment he realised she had disconnected the phones and left him to die

There is a lot of stigma about divorce for a pastor. And if he's a pastor, he likely IS a counselor in their church for other couples, which is ironic.

Chances are also good that his wife puts on a wonderful church face, and she'll make him look like a sinful asshole for bailing on the marriage. He might even lose his job.

I think he should've announced their Christmas plans, matter or fact, from the pulpit, as in, "Charlotte and I are blessed to spend this holy season with you. I'll be at the Christmas potluck, while she is planning to be at her ex husbands house".

Begin to let the congregation know this woman's "values". Let them condemn her and pick up the "whiff of adultery". They're usually very good at this.

She may, possibly, be so shamed that she'll straighten up, but, at the very least, LW will have the full support of his flock in getting rid of her.

I don't think that it's even about the (whiff of) adultery for her. If she just wanted to screw her ex, she'd make up some excuse for where she'd be. She wants to hurt her husband, either because she's just an outright sociopath, or because she'd outrageously angry at him for some real or imagined (most likely imagined) reason.

There is a lot of stigma about divorce for a pastor. And if he's a pastor, he likely IS a counselor in their church for other couples, which is ironic.

Being divorced can also give him a stronger foundation for helping other divorced people. It's difficult to believe someone who says "I know how you feel" when they've spent 30 years in a happy marriage.

WhistleDick is right. I'm sure she's not evil, but she is seriously messed up. If she WERE evil, this wouldn't be so hard. She'd be making his life miserable 24/7. There are probably many things about her that make her attractive, things that attracted him in the first place. And that's where leaving these psychologically abusive relationships gets so difficult. During the fun, calm times, it's difficult to imagine why you fear this person and easy to convince yourself that you're overreacting.

LW, you're not overreacting. This isn't the way healthy relationships work. The crumbs of good behavior she throws you should not sustain you.

I missed the part where he said he was retired. So, I'm guessing they're both older, and often, older people will settle for whoever will have them, thinking they won't find anyone else. They've only been married for 5 years, and it sounds like when they met, he had status as the pastor.

I'm not sure she isn't evil. His description makes her sound sociopathic, but it's clear that, at the very least, she wants him to change and/or wants something very different from the marriage.

It's true that a lot of religious men are missing their balls. Something about church draws these meek, conflict-avoiding men (perhaps because it's usually the women who want to go, so the guys who get dragged there are weaker to begin with). My BIL, who is a pastor, once gave a sermon on this - how church men need to step up and be better role models for manliness because too often they come across as choir-singing weenies.

Maybe once LW lost his status as a pastor, his wife realized he was just basically a wuss. It sounds like she may be mad that he's not more assertive and active as a man (after all, she wanted to "hike" with her ex).

They either need to find a good counselor to help them communicate better, or he needs to cut his losses and bail. I'm not sure which, but LW should probably examine his actions and question whether he's failed in some critical ways that could make her this angrily passive-aggressive, and if not, she's just a mean woman and isn't likely to change.

What whistleDick said:

"Get divorced.
You'll love it and your family will thrive because of it.
Never bad mouth her to anyone, ever. "

Awesome post, whistleDick.

I had the exact same problems with my ex-husband - he was often a really great guy, and he was really active and popular at his conservative Catholic church. But he just wouldn't or couldn't stop the hostility (it started **as soon as** we married) and the demon within him that drove this behavior made it perfectly clear to me that it was not going to change. Once I finally got that message, I left.

As a nice benefit, I had a lot of "personal growth" opportunities as I recovered from my marriage that I wouldn't have had otherwise. I know myself a lot better now, and I know my strengths and weaknesses better. I have a much better idea of what I want out of a relationship, and what I can bring to a relationship, if I ever have the chance to be in one again.

Well, you can debate the semantics of evil and whether evil exists and if so where do you draw the line. I'm sure a pastor would have a lot to say about this.

There's no doubt thought that LW's wife's behavior is incredibly fucked up. It's so extreme in fact that I can't help wondering if it's a cry for attention or there's something else behind it. I mean, if her ultimate goal was to carry on a illicit affair with her ex, you'd think she'd be more subtle about it. Announcing that you're spending Christmas with your ex-boyfriend, especially as a pastor's wife, is like a teenager telling her parents, "I'm smoking pot and dropping out of school and getting a tattoo and moving in with my 27 year old boyfriend and there's nothing you can do about it!" When children act this way it's often because they're trying to see how much it takes for their parents to act like parents and lay down some rules. Maybe that's the case here, and LW needs to man up and tell his wife "This is unacceptable and if you want to hang out with your ex-boyfriend, you can get the hell out of my house." It's worth a shot.

I agree, Shannon. It kind of seems like she's crying out for boundaries. She wants him to man-up, tell her this is unacceptable, and he won't stand for it. Maybe she'd have more respect for him, and at any rate, he's got nothing much to lose by trying it.

Once respect is lost, civility usually follows. Either this woman is a sociopath or she's lost such respect for him that she doesn't even care what she says anymore and has started goading him trying to get some kind of reaction other than "Mr Nice Guy".

She's not crying out for boundaries or shit-testing or anything else.

She's BPD. She's fucked up and she knows it and she doesn't care, because borderlines never do.

They rely on people's good nature to keep them coming back for more abuse. Like all borderlines, she gets off on abusing him and cuckolding him.

Kick the bitch to the curb. Don't warn her, just do it. Change the locks when she leaves, and have her served the moment she walks up the stairs to the porch.

She's not crying out for boundaries or shit-testing or anything else. She's BPD.

I've gotta agree. At the risk of armchair diagnosing someone with a mental illness, this does seem to be textbook BPD behavior. Borderlines are nuts. This seems well beyond her testing his limits.

Well, the answer was right, but obvious.

Hopefully, this man will take your advice. Apparently, this retired pastor thinks, "Blessed are the meek" reads "Blessed are the weak."

He's probably afraid that she'll leave him if he ever decides to put his foot down. And he's right ... but the irony is, he doesn't realize this would actually be a *good* thing. She's trouble. She's obvious cheating, and she's obviously emotionally abusive ... it is bad to keep people like this in our lives. LW, her fake "anger" is because she's guilty.

"I agree, Shannon. It kind of seems like she's crying out for boundaries. She wants him to man-up, tell her this is unacceptable, and he won't stand for it."

She doesn't want him to man up - she wants him to stay a pathetic wimp so she can keep trampling on him. She's with him *because* she is able to trample on him - abusive people like this *choose* people they can trample on, it's their pattern. If he decides to man up, I guarantee that initially she will escalate the level of abuse, and when that doesn't work, she will leave (disgusted and angry at him for not letting her trample on him) so she can find another wuss of a man that she is able to trample on. Then she'll be someone else's problem, and the letter writer can try build a new life with someone decent.

I like whistledick's advice. Retain the high ground, retain grace and dignity, but close this chapter.

I'm inclined to agree, but I think it's important to remember that we only get one side of these stories, and if someone is particularly dense, they may have no idea why their partner is so frustrated and angry.

I have friends who are like that right now. They've been together 20 something years, and have had a good marriage, but in the last few years, they've started a business, and now they spend 24 hrs together. It's too much for the wife. She needs some space, and has tried telling him over and over, but he just won't get it. Plus, he's been drinking and smoking pot a lot more and has become really dependent and acts stupidly stoned/drunk half the time. For her, it's like taking care of a little kid.

So, even though she's one of the sweetest ladies I've ever known, her impatience with him is driving her to say mean, snippy, sarcastic things, and their discourse is really deteriorating. If you met them now, you'd probably think he was adorable (he's Israeli, so he has this cute accent which make his drunken antics seem charming), and she is a mean bitch, but that's not the case.

When somebody just won't get that they need to change, or repeatedly refuses to meet their partner's needs, it can lead to that kind of situation. LW's wife is probably BPD, but on the off chance he's just been too dense to get why she's become so angry with him, he should first consider that before bailing out. Has she repeatedly asked him to do things he still hasn't done? Reasonable things?

A GROWN woman doesn't need to cry out for boundaries with her husband. Marriage is supposed to be like playing doubles tennis-- you're both on the same side of the net. This man's wife is playing against him, but she's doing it on the same side with him. It's no wonder he's getting beat up, and he has no idea why. She's a spoiled immature brat who never learned how to be an adult.
She's also a psychopath.

Women like this are really hot in bed. That's why men put up with them. Otherwise, this behavior would have been extinguished millions of years ago. Read Hosea in the Bible.

The tone in "Shove Thy Neighbor " and this are so at odds with each other even though the advice is pretty much the same.(get self respect) and it seems to just boil down to the gender that you are giving advice to(you have given advice in a nice matter of fact tone to the woman, but for the guy, your language is rather harsh calling him spineless and doormat etc). Somehow, you seem to reserve harsh language for the men.

I don't think so. Dr Helen never uses such language on men no matter what. Of course, she never uses harsh language on anyone, but she does specifically make it a point to point out when bad language is used against men. Plus I have given a concrete example to substantiate my point. I think the example I gave between two of your posts pretty much explains my point and I bet most people would not disagree when I put both of these side by side and showed it to them. And I am yet to see a post advising women in such a harsh manner.

Where you shine in non discrimination against men is in your commentary on abuses of men especially on articles by F&F and Glenn Sacks which is why I keep coming back to your site. There you are harsh on the women, but when it comes to this personal advice, the tone of the advice between men and women is quite different.

Oy. Redrajesh, Amy, you're both right! Or is that wrong?

There is a sexist component to the difference in tone between exhortations to woman up (you can do this! go girl!) and man up (if you can find your balls). It's in the condescendingly low expectations of women. Not the answer I was looking for, but analysis goes where it wist.

We are in a notably uncivil phase of our society. Actual (h/t Whoopi) nice-nice is becoming rare. Social standards, once the realm of the churches and their fearsome enforcers the aunties, seem comically irrelevant.

Niceness is a virtuous cycle. It thrives when many people live it. We are not the people who bemused de Tocqueville with our civic engagement. Perhaps outsourcing charity to the Gubmint was a bad idea?

In this context, some personal styles, like the pastor's, are less adaptive than ever. Nobody's got his back. With any luck he's ready for a Patrick Swayze "Roadhouse" epiphany. It's time to not be nice.

Here endeth the musings.
-- phunctor

P.S.
Please add ".*temperature.*" to the list of answers for "is water wet or dry".

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