Open up to her about the painful relationship you have with your mother and how hurtful it's been that she has tried to drive away every woman in your life

That's intentional, if not conscious. If she's "The one", she'll have to meet her sometime - but you need to warn and prep her for that, and be certain she's OK with it.

And that you're OK with your mom being not OK with her. That's more important.

> (For best results, avoid mentioning that Mom'll
> think she's from the wrong side of the Crayola box.)

Why? Isn't that pretty important information to convey?

I've had this problem with dark skinned black men too. BTW to alot of people I look racially ambiguous. One jokingly said I look "off white". People just can't tell what race I am, but that I am mixed with white. (I'm not mixed with "white" in the European sense, I'm mixed with Arabs).

My dad looks like a pasty white guy and my mom looks like Lucy Lawless but with dark skin. So yeah........it's apparently a problem to some black mothers. A BIG problem. You know because in black culture latinas, bi-racial girls, redbones etc. are put up as an ideal so some black dark skinned women feel we are a threat and that black men don't like black women.

Seriously people can we get over this shit? Skin color is a ridiculous ideal to judge someone by. My mom told me she was always too "white" looking for brown girls and too dark for light girls.

Serious bullshit central here.

"For best results, avoid mentioning that Mom'll think she's from the wrong side of the Crayola box."

I would have him tell his gf that his mom has a problem with skin color. I always liked knowing that they didnt like me because I'm the wrong "shade"/ethnic background etc.

And it's not just black mothers but holy shit asian fathers are horrible if you are not a white guy or an asian guy dating their daughter.

Ugh.

Amy's advice is perfect. I wouldn't tell the GF anything to do with race, because all that will do is hurt her—especially when a simple "My mother is a crazy bitch and tries to sabotage my personal life" will do just fine.

"race, because all that will do is hurt her"

Eventually you find out. If she's the one he'd better let her know about it. Its good to know mom is racist and tries to ruin my personal life.

She won't like you unless you are the right color. It's like being gay, you gotta tell your partner your parents will never like them for being the same sex.

He should mention the Crayola bit... but after he's fully gotten across the bat-shit crazy part about his mother. That doesn't have to be first.

Stories about past interactions are good for this sort of thing. I knew my husband's grandmother was nutso before I met her (all of once). So, I wasn't terribly surprised by some of the totally weird stuff she did. However, it's best to dip your toes into the pool of insanity before jumping in.

He can mention it in passing: "why, she's even racist as well," but I wouldn't make it the primary reason why he doesn't want to introduce them—and in all honesty, it's not the primary reason anyway.

The primary reason is that she's a manipulator who wants to meddle.

Yeah, I agree that he should tell his girl about his mom's Crayola thing, while he tells her about aaaaalll of Mom's other flavors of crazy. She deserves to know ahead of time that she's dealing with someone who will never think she's *dark* enough to be with her son. Most of us know that our future MIL's will worry about us being *good* enough for their son, and (consciously or not) prepare a defense for that, get ready to show his mom how good we are. We drop in little tidbits about our career, get our house to sparkle, showcase our best cooking, etc. and if MIL doesn't seem impressed, we wonder what we should've done differently. If the gf knows ahead of time that there is literally nothing she can ever do right in the MIL's eyes, she'll probably still try, but she won't beat herself up so bad when his mom is awful afterward.

One thing about it is that the gf probably has friends/sisters/something who had a more common experience---the MIL was normal-crazy (e.g. suspicious of women who like their careers too much, or what have you) and eventually warmed up when it was clear that the DIL was making the son happy and wasn't going anywhere. It's so normal for people to say "oh, my mom is crazy and no one is ever good enough for her kids" that people don't expect crazy-crazy unless you really spell it out, in detail.

First, let me be impolite towards our host and say, don't follow *all* Amy's advice regarding opening up to your girlfriend. Rather than discuss your relationship with your mother, simply tell your girlfriend that your mother doesn't treat your girlfriends well, so you no longer introduce them to your mother. No further explanation and NO apologies by you. (You are not sorry for anything, because you are doing nothing wrong, right? RIGHT!) Oversharing about your mom with your woman makes you seem a bit immature. As a general rule, grown men don't (or shouldn't) spend time talking about their relationships with their mother, wife, or daughter with anyone else. Those are the three involate female relationships in a man's life, and you do not allow anyone, including one of the other three women, to intrude in any way on one of those areas. Discussion is intrusion.

As for what you should do here, this one is easy: for now, you don't introduce her to your mom. This second part is absolutely crucial: you also tell both of them why. "Mom, you treat them like shit when you meet them, so you lost your privileges. Earn them back with good behavior. I decide when you have." If they protest, tell them calmly why again, and then stare at them. You don't have to do a damn think you don't want to, and you don't have to explain yourself in this situation.

Put simply, if you don't want to deal with Momma Drama, then don't participate in Momma Drama set-ups, like introducing girlfriends to your Momma Drama-loving momma.

If your mom won't accept that you refuse to introduce her to your girlfriend, tell her she does not get a vote, stand up, stare at her a moment, and then walk out. Not another word on the topic. If she raises it later, you quietly state, "You know my answer. Drop it or I leave right now." My guess is her jaw will be table-topped as you do this the first and second time. You are making it clear there are boundaries she has to respect, something she apparently is not familiar with.

But again, you are a grown ass man, and you don't take orders from her or any other woman who doesn't sign your paycheck. Make that clear to her and your possible future wife.

Eventually, if you do marry this gal, obviously she will meet your mother. If mom starts in on her bullshit at any point, tell mom to shut up and leave your woman alone. No smiles. No apologies. Treat your mom coldly if she starts in with her bullshit.

Part of being a good husband is making sure mom knows that your wife has your loyalty over mom. (Yeah, let *that* one sink in, guys.) Any wife wants to know that SHE will be the primary matriarchal figure in her own house, and that mother-in-law is and will always be a guest in the son's home, not a visiting dictator.

Speaking more broadly, people will only pull dominating bullshit (and that is what you mother is trying to do, dominate you and your girlfriends) if you let them. If you make it clear--once--that you will immediately drop any social interaction where people act in a dominating, they will quickly stop it, if they value future interactions with you.

As I said, you are a man now, not your mother's child. Act like a man. Otherwise any woman you want to marry will be chased off by your mother's bullshit.

(You're welcome, son.)

I stand by my answer. He should not explain his relationship with the other female to either of the two women. He says a simple explanation for his refusal to participate in mom's nonsense by introducing them, and then he does not revisit it much until he sees a significant change in mom.

Girlfriend is owed an explanation, and he can provide that, but girlfriend is not owed a download of his file on mom. Similarly, mom has no right to any information about girlfriend that son doesn't want to share.

That boundary-setting with both women starts now, and that boundary will continue to exist hereafter is the message he needs to convey. Spending time talking about his feeeeewings about mom or how she didn't treat the third girl he loved in the past so well is too much information. The girlfriend will simply process any detail and need ever more, ever more.

Talking about such things with a girlfriend is like giving them carbs: it leave them hungry for more. Better to simply avoid it all.

Reminds me of a Eubie Blake song--"If you've never been vamped by a brown skin, you've never been vamped at all!" in which several shades are described.

Saw the musical on tv years ago. While Blake's songs were well received by the audience, that particular one didn't get much applause.

"my mother doesn't want me dating a light-skinned girl because she wants grandkids who resemble her"

Yeeesh...tell Mom to stop being such a racist and see what she says. Go on, it'll be fun!

By the way, there's an old movie called "The Silver Cord" LW might find interesting. The cast is white, but the problem is universal.

LW, you have to take care of this. Introduce your girlfriend to your mother. Warn her first, but she'll still want to see for herself. They may even get along, but there's only one way to find out. Then tell your mother you hope she loves your children even if they aren't dark enough to suit her. Then go live your life.

I can't see the benefit in what Spartee is saying about setting boundaries with the women in your life with regard to expressing feelings...that makes no sense. If LW thinks this girl is the one, then they need to have open communication. This is how a relationship remains successful and allows two people to grow together. It shouldn't be a game, or a process of withholding information...a partner who really loves you won't use your feelings about your relationship with your mom against you. She also won't harp on and on about what a bitch your mom is...she'll let it go when necessary and complain to her girlfriends about her crazy in-laws, like the rest of us do. I don't think Spartee is giving the LWs girlfriend enough credit here. I'm with Amy.

Forseeing a different problem for him in the future. There's the old saying for girls if you want to see how he will treat you, see how he treats/respects/his relationship with his Mother. Which unfortunately assumes his Mom isn't batshit crazy.

I agree with Spartee, and here's why:
The LW is clearly the type of person who needs that kind (

I used to think it was important to be secretive and to seem completely together (no problems, etc.), and it's one thing to bleed everything about yourself, but as I pointed out on one of my radio shows recently, people connect with you more on the stuff that isn't "I'm stellar! I am problem-free!" Opening up is a good thing...

Posted by: Amy Alkon July 11, 2012 7:40 AM

Can you please point out which radio show this was, Amy? I searched on your radio page, but don't know who was your guest speaker to clue me in on which show it was.

And I heartily agree with your statement. After having trouble developing friendships beyond acquaintance level, I found that it was easier for me to connect with them on a more genuine level once I dropped the facade of perfection.

"You can stand by your explanation, but you don't have good reasons to support it."

Sometimes, just sometimes, we all need to slow down a bit on that "submit" button...

See, my brother is one of these "I don't owe anybody information" guys, too. Our mother is also crazy (no Crayola weirdness, but plenty of other sorts) and he nearly lost his current wife over his evasiveness about our mom. He said "I don't owe her that information" and I told him "Yes, genius, but Daisy over there doesn't 'owe' you a relationship, either. You both want a relationship, and she wants to understand the person with whom she's having the relationship."

And it's reasonable, too, to want to know this. It is true that you can often tell a lot about a person by their relationships with their parents. It isn't always fair, but it's true. People who have abusive, manipulative parents often learn bad habits and have dysfunction to work out, no matter how good they are in most ways. And, it goes both ways---not only could someone say "Wow, that's my boyfriend 25 years down the road? No thanks" but they could say "Wow, my boyfriend is a super-genius who must've worked like a maniac to be as awesome as he is with that kind of upbringing." That last one was my sister-in-law's reaction. Or, if the guy doesn't ever want his gf to meet his mom, she does deserve to know why she's not getting a mother-in-law and why any potential children aren't getting a grandma. And, the decision would have to be permanent.

It's often underlying shame that keeps people "private."

Amy thank you this is so profound and something I'm learning. After 4 years I finally opened up to a friend who has 2 doctors as parents. I thought her life had been ideal and didn't want to describe the abuse I suffered from my parents. Turns out her parents were abusive as well but in an "intellectual" way.

We had the best dinner the other day. You need to open up but not bleed. I love people that do that and I need to do the same.

I'd like to know why the LW ever let Mom get up to the crazy questions? He needs to tell Mom once, and only once, that he will not tolerate her rudeness to the women he dates, and that grilling them on personal issues is right out. He also needs to warn the girlfriend. Then, at the first inappropriate word out of Mom's mouth -- and you *know* she's going to try to overstep the boundary -- he should stand up, hold out his hand to his girlfriend and say, "I'm sorry, honey, but clearly Mom doesn't feel up to company right now. Mom, we'll see you when you're in a better mood." Walk out. Do not discuss, do not explain, do not engage, do not answer the phone and listen to temper tantrums.

Each time this happens, Mom gets a "time out" -- she gets a week or two or three where she gets no contact at all, no phone calls, no visits, no email, nothing. Each time it's repeated, the time out gets longer. She goes into time out more than, say, 3-4 times, she gets cut off.

As for the issue of potential grandchildren, all nasty comments should simply be met with "That's fine, Mom, you don't have to see them."

As for Spartee's nonsense, I have a husband who was the only son of a toxic mother who divorced when he was quite young; he was the sole focus of her attention. He wound up undergoing a few years of therapy to deal with the depression and anxiety issues this caused. Talking to me about the whole matter helped. Furthermore, I have no interest in being married to a man who seals off important parts of his emotional life from me.

BTW, we've been together 22 years and are still crazy about one another, so clearly we're doing something right.

I think I’m with Pricklypear. The LW should tell her the reason he has not introduced her to his mother, give some examples of her standard, beyond-nosey behavior, and tell her that Mom has been pretty hurtful in the past and he didn’t want that to happen to her. Then tell her, if she wants, he will still introduce GF to guano-grade nuts Mom but be prepared and stay alert. Forewarned is forearmed. Chances are she will still want to meet Mom, if only to satisfy her own curiosity and they will have to suffer through the visitation but if they both know what’s coming it might not be so jarring. Afterward, they may even be able to have a laugh about it (“OMG! I thought you were exaggerating! She really is that nasty.”)

Why would they have to "suffer through the visitation?" Again, Crazy Mom needs to be left alone at the first vicious word out of her mouth. Every. Single. Time.

"I can't see the benefit in what Spartee is saying about setting boundaries with the women in your life with regard to expressing feelings...that makes no sense. If LW thinks this girl is the one, then they need to have open communication."

I think it depends on the personalities of the individuals involved. Some women would perceive "Open[ing] up to her about the painful relationship you have with your mother and how hurtful it's been that she has tried to drive away every woman in your life" as weakness. Others would feel this is a normal part of a relationship. (I've dated both types but married the latter type, thankfully.)

The bottom line is he needs to do it though .. he needs to communicate the issue - exactly how, depends on the type of person he is and his gf is and what sort of relationship they have.

I do think he should avoid his mother, and not introduce her. I agree with Amy that she's "sick, hateful and a destroyer" -- there is absolutely no reason whatsoever, nothing useful to be gained, in letting her near his girlfriends. If his mother is controlling to the point that she can bully him into having a meeting, then he needs to stand up his mother.

Part of being a good husband is making sure mom knows that your wife has your loyalty over mom.

This part is very true. I wish I had learned that lesson young. My ex-husband asked me to marry him the day after Christmas, because his mom wouldn't let him come over my house on Christmas Day. He was 26 years old.

I would suggest that if the LW wants to try introducing his girlfriend to his mother, that he have a zero-tolerance policy in place for disrespect. Warn the mom that the first terrible thing she says to the woman (provide examples), they're gone. When she inevitably says something terrible, walk out. No second chances. His mom will get the message, and his girlfriend will see that he'll take her side.

think it depends on the personalities of the individuals involved. Some women would perceive "Open[ing] up to her about the painful relationship you have with your mother and how hurtful it's been that she has tried to drive away every woman in your life" as weakness. Others would feel this is a normal part of a relationship.

I can't fathom marrying someone from whom I felt I needed to hide a fundamental part of myself.

I agree with Amy's response, but I find it troubling that this has even become a question to ask someone else. Is there a reason he has for thinking that telling his girlfriend the truth would be a bad thing to do?

His mother is Endora on "Bewitched." What's so hard about that?

Thanks for the link, Amy. Very much appreciated your taking the time to respond so quickly.

It's often underlying shame that keeps people "private."
Posted by: Amy Alkon July 11, 2012 11:03 AM

Yes, yes, and triple yes on how insightful this comment is! I've had difficulty in the past striking that balance between being uber-private and blah-blah bleeding. Being open is still something new to me, but it's working well with the few individuals I've chosen to open up to.

I think your advice to LW is spot on, Amy. LW is stonewalling his GF, and that just doesn't bode well for successful communication in a relationship. It can turn into a major thorn in her side when it doesn't need to be. He might find his GF to be very compassionate and sympathetic regarding his baggage with his mother.

Right now, they haven't been dating for so long where she is feeling secure in their relationship. By giving her insight and building a bond of trust, togetherness, and "us" vs. Mom, she feels like she's part of his inner circle. And with that feeling and knowledge, she might relax a great deal in making demands to meet Mom.

Spartee won't accept this explanation but I'll throw it out to the group. As a man l ca state that a man's purpose is not to seek a drama free life but instead to identify ways to genuinely relate to the other gender. For example, as a man, I understand the instinct to set boundaries with a proven crazy like mom. It's a rules-based, logical, clear-cut reaction and a well-founded means to cut threats out of your life. The gf is not a threat and is not crazy as far as we know. Most women will regard Spartee's 'These Are My Rules' tone as controlling and shallow. So if a man wants a relationship he needs to share a little but tweak it so it comes out right. IE if I'm the LW I don't tell the gf my mom annoys me and I've 'fixed' the situation in the typical male way of elimination. Instead I 'translate' this into the words Amy used...my moms actions are deeply hurtful and I struggle with the relationship etc. it's not exactly how I as a man perceive the situation but it's the closest approximation my gf will comprehend. It's not over sharing Spartee. It's about 30 minutes of back and forth dialogue, perfectly healthy for a relationship.

T said: For example, as a man, I understand the instinct to set boundaries with a proven crazy like mom. It's a rules-based, logical, clear-cut reaction and a well-founded means to cut threats out of your life.

Actually, in my experience it is common for men -- women, too, very likely -- to be in denial where their mothers are concerned. His mother will say something openly nasty -- "Gaining some weight, hmmm?" or whatever to his girlfriend or wife, and when the GF or DW objects he'll insist "Oh, Mom didn't mean it that way! You misunderstood her!" Just as likely, he'll know Mom is a crazy b!tch, but be terrified to stand up to her, and expect the GF or DW to go along -- "That's just how she is. Just ignore it."

I always attracted men with problematic mothers -- whether that's a reflection of my personality or evidence of how many f*cked up mothers there are, or both, I leave as an exercise for the reader. I will say this, though: I married the one who had the balls to tell his nasty mother to go to hell. So many of them never, ever do.

Ah yes, the line between a fortress of one and a emotional bleeder. Emotionally two separate places, but the land in between can be tricky for some of us to find. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has ever had problems with that.

Also, I just want to say that I, too, liked what Amy said:

It's often underlying shame that keeps people "private."

Well said.

In my experience, under-sharing to the point of being pathological about your privacy, BUT AT THE SAME TIME BEING AWESOME AND FUN TO TALK TO, is the most functional route.

You will drive the nosy women crazy, but that's ok. Judging by the comments, that would include lots of the girls here.

People treat you soooo much better when you do this. And by treat you better i mean "you get crazy laid," among other things.

Amy's advice and remarks, although good overall, makes certain (flattering) assumptions about women.

The assumption is this: that the woman is enough into you, or sweet and caring enough by nature.

In the absence of either of these doing some sort of boundary setting like Spartee suggests is sadly a viable route.

Women are just people. They are just hoooman. Advice that assumes they are all sweet and caring is just as dehumanizing, and flawed, as misogynistic rants about "money diggers" or "douche chasing bitches."

In my experience, under-sharing to the point of being pathological about your privacy, BUT AT THE SAME TIME BEING AWESOME AND FUN TO TALK TO, is the most functional route.

You will drive the nosy women crazy, but that's ok. Judging by the comments, that would include lots of the girls here.

People treat you soooo much better when you do this. And by treat you better i mean "you get crazy laid," among other things.

I'm sure that's a workable strategy for getting crazy laid. OTOH, it's a very poor strategy if what you want is a relationship that is intimate in any way other than meshing genitalia.

"My mom doesnt treat my girlfriends well" and nothing else won't work, she will think you are using it as an excuse because you don't think she's the kind of girl you take home to mom

Wait a goddamn minute here. When were prizes being handed out?

"Are you planning on seeing my son in the nude?"

Answer: "Of course not. When we're married, we'll be bringing out the sheet with the hole in it."

... it's because I've been that girl! :(

My mom was exactly like the LWs. She told us charming stories about how Polar bears don't date Panda bears, and made sure that none of us had friends when we were growing up because she thought of us as her personal property.

I attempted to cut off all contact with her as Spartee mentioned, as the 'behave or I'll leave' process didn't work. Her reaction to that was hiring a private investigator to follow me around, and planning to tell the police that I had drugs in my apartment (which I didn't), just to 'fix' me. My solution was to make up a story about my very wealthy boyfriend who didn't like peasants and didn't want me to associate with them either (her being the peasant). Because she was a snob, she was OK with that and finally left me alone. Go figure.