The only women you're going to attract with this ploy are insecure and immature. If that's what you want, go for it, buddy.

A few things to think about:

PUA don't care about what a woman is really like, they just want to nail the ones they're attracted to. That the women in question are silly and insecure is really quite irrelevant to them. They're not looking for a girlfriend, just a lay. They use "the neg" because it works with the women they're after. The common female response on this subject is that it wouldn't work on "X" type of woman. And that may very well be true, but then...the PUA isn't trying to get "X" if anything, he's actively avoiding her and his "neg" process helps him achieve that.

Now, if you're trying to get a woman that is actually worth enjoying time with, other than in bed, just be bold to your purpose. Find a woman you're attracted to, find out if you have some things in common, then ask her out. If she says no, there are other women.

If you want her to want you, show her things about you that are worthy of being wanted. Self respect, dignity, intelligence, common interest, and enjoy the time you have, and suggest that you would enjoy more of it together.

Not that hard really.

I just got stood up this weekend, the girl was quite lovely, we liked some of the same authors, flirted quite enjoyably, then the appointed hour came, and she never appeared, didn't respond to a message, and delisted me on facebook, as well as blocking the friend of ours that introduced us. I have absolutely 0 idea just what happened. And while I admit I'm rather curious...

My ego survives quite intact, after all, I realize that as much fun as it might have been, I have no claim on her and she can do as she likes, that unexpected (and a bit rude) rejection notwithstanding, I'm still going to just go right back out, and pick up some other pretty to share time with.

It was actually my first time being stood up...which is not a bad run for a guy in his mid 30s...I found it an interesting learning experience, and was actually comfortable with what happened, however annoyed, it was good to know I could easily mentally cope with an unexpected disappointment like that.

The LW in this case, just needs to relax, learn how to flirt, learn the art of the double entendre, behave as a gentleman, and pick up a lady, not an insecure slut that sleeps with guys for the price of an insult.

They use "the neg" because it works with the women they're after.

Robert's totally right. If you want someone to spend a night (or a quick trip to the nearest reasonably clean restroom) with, then go with the "kind of mean to women" approach. It'll probably work. And the women who will respond to it will be the ones also looking for a quick romp and/or the ones whose self-esteem is so low they'll let you go Michael Flatley all over their backs if it means they can get a man. (The women who are in it only for one night may respond to you because the neg is a signal that the dude's looking for no-strings sex, and they wouldn't dream of letting you talk to them that way if they were actually looking for a man to date.)

It's all about tailoring your moves to the type of women you want and the type of guy you are. And you don't sound like a "kind of mean to women" guy.

A successful neg-hit is one you can both laugh at: Tell the pretty girl in a bright party dress, "Wow! You look just like a pinata!"
When she punches your arm, it's game on.

I tried a David neg-hit on my beautiful niece... His idea was to ask the girl if she got her dress new. My niece was quite thrilled to tell me "Oh no, it's 'vintage'."
Clunk.

And, the PUAs all warn us not to use more than a couple of neg hits during the evening. They know full well how it can "C&B"-- Crash & Burn.

Um... you hit on your niece?

I absolutely hate the PUA way of picking up women. It may be succesful, but I think it's dishonest. What I found works rather well, is the almost brutally honest way - no woman I go out with has any doubts that it is my ambition to see her naked on her hands and knees on my sofa. I let them know that I am not looking for a friend. That I don't do romantic, candle light love making. And I have never had an easier time picking up women. I don't cheat, I don't lie, I don't pretend. Even let them know that I always put my kids first and I will push them ruthlessly out of the way if they're in my childrens way.

I also treat them with respect, let them know they look nice, I have no problem paying for dinner, I don't get upset if they turn me down. It's not like I'm a brute, but I do like them to know what I'm about.

Heh. I fell for that crap when I was younger. But then, I was in a band and all the guys hit on me! As I got older, though, I didn't want the head games, it's too much work.

Truth be told, though, if anything happens to BF and me, I'd be toast in the dating game. I probably wouldn't even bother. Been there, done that, it's old hat anymore.

Honesty is the best policy, Han. Good luck!

The letterwriter should go to heartiste.wordpress.com.

That blog is a bit too gleeful in tone when conveying its darker messages, but that blog is about the only "Game" blog you can read without being bored after two minutes. Even if you are not into "Game", as they call it, the writer(s) frequently provide the sort of non-PC antidote to the silly "sexes are the same" cant our culture serves up.

The primary message to take away from writers like Heartiste is actually profound: what women say they want, and what they desire, are frequently very different things. And women are often not aware of, or at least not willing to admit, this divide exists. It is actually an old message found in writing throughout history, but it has been a verboten message for a few decades.

A secondary message frequently served up by Heartiste that likely will upset many here is that women (and many misguided men) will deny that primary message with full hearts (i.e., believe it) but empty heads (i.e., ignoring contrary facts).

Don't make that blog the defining reading of your life, but for a contrasting point of view to today's dominant cultural message, it serves its function.

On a broader note, when examining the question of "what attracts females?", quantification and measurement are difficult things in that realm of female attraction. We are often left closer to the realm of philosophical speculation than in-depth scientific study. So pretty much everyone brings more opinion than fact to the debate. People being people, however, the opinion-givers tend to be very, very sure of their views in that area.

But I would hazard an opinion and say that the message of "be nice! Be yourself!" is not only unhelpful, but tends to work against your interest in attracting women. Women really don't want cute puppies for mates, even if they find them cute and amusing for a few minutes.

NO NO NO. The surefire way to pick up women is to act "broken, yet fixable." Women love their projects.

I find myself wondering what the work buddy means by "kind of mean."

If that's to suggest that women prefer him pulling up on a motorcycle, then gesturing with his head for her to get on, as opposed to, "My dear, you look lovely this evening. Oh, may I please get this door for you?" then perhaps he has a point. Which is why "mean" gets the "kind of" modifier.

I expect also the age group matters. Are we talking late teens and early twenties, as opposed to late 30s here?

I agree with much of what Spartee said, especially a huge difference between what people say they want and what they do want/go after.

This is compounded by two things, one is a variability on what words mean. 'kind of mean' and nice will mean completely different things to different people. Some view anything 'nice' = doormat, or to retuning a phone call occasionally. While others view kind of mean to, be anything from only occasionally returning phone calls, to breaking the law.

The second is what I call the rose colored glasses effect. That when love/lust is in her (and sometimes his) heart, everything gets 'spun' in a nice way. " Him smashing that wall just shows how passionate he is." When dark colored glasses are worn, everything gets 'spun' in the worst light.
" He donated to charity, he's just lording over how much he makes, the greedy bastard."

Heh. I fell for that crap when I was younger.

Yes, the other thing about PUAs is that they go after young women. Men like Roissy are in their late 30s hitting on women in their early 20s. The neg is very likely to work in that case.

That's fine if that's what they want, but I also get a strong vibe of contempt for women from that site. Well, really. Yes: young, insecure and naive women are going to look foolish compared to men who have a decade or two on them. An older woman would not look so foolish, but they also spend a great deal of time emphasizing the uselessness of women to society once they have exceeded a certain age.

Spartee is right that that site teaches you a lot about the differences between what people say and what they truly mean and is probably a godsend to "nice" beta males who never could figure out why women despise them. However, it also has a pretty grim worldview that is best taken in small doses only.

A successful neg-hit is one you can both laugh at: Tell the pretty girl in a bright party dress, "Wow! You look just like a pinata!"
When she punches your arm, it's game on.

Yep! As a good friend of mine explained, good negging is basically playful teasing. If she doesn't laugh, ur doin it rong. It takes a sense of humor and subtlety to pull it off, but, when done well, it establishes a playful, flirty rapport.

Unfortunately, a lot of the guys who turn to PUA techniques/seminars/books initially lack the social skills to pull it off and just come across as mean.

"....act "broken, yet fixable." Women love their projects." Well, that can backfire. Sometimes women who treat you like a project get all pissy once you're "fixed" and try to spread your wings again. The best "project" for such women is one that never ends.....

"Yep! As a good friend of mine explained, good negging is basically playful teasing. If she doesn't laugh, ur doin it rong. It takes a sense of humor and subtlety to pull it off, but, when done well, it establishes a playful, flirty rapport. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys who turn to PUA techniques/seminars/books initially lack the social skills to pull it off and just come across as mean."

Exactly. "Negging" is just a type of witty, back-and-forth banter that people have been using long before the idea of "game" was even acknowledged. It's more fun, engaging, and intellectually stimulating than just lobbying compliments or platitudes at one another.

However, "negging" only really works if it's natural. If it's too calculated or studied, you're going to come across as mean, obvious, or socially inept. You know how when middle-aged people try too hard to copy a younger generation's clothes, language, or mannerisms, and just end up looking ridiculous or dating themselves further? Consciously/artificially insulting women produces the same effect. In that sense it *is* better to act natural and be yourself then to look socially awkward and trying too hard.

I gotta say, the brutally honest approach worked pretty well in hooking me! The problem is, it's a rare woman who can truly live with brutal honesty in the long term. It works for us because I value honesty over flattery--and I'm secure enough to be told, "You're not wearing THAT, are you?" without getting pissy about it.

I think the whole PUA thing is good for dumb/young/shallow women--but only if you're reasonably attractive. Use whatever approach works best for you.

LW please read:

Those asshole traits can be confused for those useful for survival, bravery being one. It's much scarier for a man to say what he thinks and be himself, and that's why women love guys who say and do whatever they want, negative insults have nothing to do with it. So instead of accidentally insulting to HER, just be brave by giving your filter a break in other areas.

Also: I dated a man who artificially inflated his value (his words) by calling me much less than he wanted to, and acting like he didn't want me. He tricked me into wasting 8 months of his life. He had been in love with me, and when we broke up, he was shattered, and so was his self-esteem. He called my mom and cried. Not joking.

Those games only hurt you.

In defense of socially awkward "game" and poorly calibrated conversational overtures.....the only way to improve yourself is to try and fail, then try again.

Faulting someone in the middle of personal growth for pursuing self-improvement is an ASSHOLE MOVE.

So back in college I did this experiment, and I'm sure a lot of other guys have done it. I had no dates and no girlfriend (and not even any female friends) through most of high school, and none my first year of college. During this first year, I happened to pick up on the fact that an acquaitance of my roommate always had female company, despite the fact that he was scruffy, not particulary smart, and usually broke. How does he do it, I wondered? Observing him at a couple of parties, I noticed that he actually didn't treat women very well, but the more he insulted and belittled them, the more they ate it up. I'd walk up to the same women and say something like "Hi, you sure look nice tonight", and they'd just turn their backs on me without saying a word. Now, I was far from being a male model, and I didn't have much money either, but I shaved and showered every day and I tried to be reasonably polite towards people in general. And I was, as a freshman, taking sophomore- and junior-level classes and tearing them up. None of this worked in my favor.

So one weeked I decided I was going to go out clubbing and treat the women I saw the way he did: be disrespectful towards them. I was amazed at the results. I had women who normally wouldn't give me the time of day hanging off of my shoulders and cooing in my ear. And I wasn't playfully teasing with them; I was being downright nasty. If a woman in a nice party dress came up to me, I'd say something like "You sure look like a slut tonight!" And they ate it up.

I got more action that weekend than I got the entire rest of my college career, combined. But I also found it disconcerting and vaguely disgusting. And all of those women forgot that I ever existed once I reverted to my normal self. Overall I didn't enjoy the experience and I vowed to myself that I would never do it again.

It took me years to understand what happened. But eventually I did, and here's the answer: You know all that stuff you were told in school about how women mature so much faster than men? It's bullshit. Women may learn social skills faster than men, but that's not equivalent to maturity, and an immature person with good social skills is a lot more dangerous to be around than a mature person with poor social skills. What I experienced that weekend was a high-school behavior pattern. And I hated high school with a purple passion.

Sorry you had a bad experience, but try dating a man and see how fast being nice gets you taken for granted. COULD IT BE the reason you feel so strongly is because your experience with these tactics is exclusively with women? Nah, I'm sure you've already considered that.

That was for Cousin Dave. Should've hit preview

Speaking as a middle age guy, I'd say, yes, most young women aren't honest about what they are looking for. In the 70s and 80s at least, "a sense of humor" was always at the top of the list of women wanted. One day I noticed that jocks, not comedians, had groupies, and decided that was crap. I also realized that guys weren't really honest either. They'd say "looks" in those same surveys, but not just pretty girls were getting dates: the average girl on a date was, average.

I also realized that I wasn't even honest with myself. Why? Because I didn't actually know what I wanted. I've presumed since then that is true of most people; maybe less so as we age, because part of maturity is knowing thyself.

If negging works on a woman, then that is what she wants, at least at that time with that person. If it doesn't, then it isn't. The real question is what kind of woman do you want? One that wants negging, or one that wants a different approach? Are you looking to get laid, and don't really care what kind of woman she is, or are you looking for a relationship and do care?

To tell, just observe who you want. If you are just looking to get laid, you undoubtedly already know, and yes, negging can get you laid. If you really want a relationship, and most women will expect one before they'll have sex with you, then pay particular attention to the women you think you want, who are in a relationship. Be the man that is their boyfriend/spouse/so, and you will find that kind of woman.

Mary, I don't date men, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think it does come down to knowing who you are and what you want. Games are for the superficial types, honesty is for people who desire authentic relationships. Yeah, stooges like Tucker Max get laid but do they get truly loved?
I have had tremendous men go to outrageous lengths to do terribly romantic things for me. Most I never slept with, I only married one of them and the rest are still friends of mine. I will give any good man the opportunity to treat me well.

I also would ask why this guy wants the women his friend gets? They may be quantity but are they quality?