"Of course, what really lowers a man's "value in the woman's subconscious" is being someone who needs a "dating guru" to help him be calculating; he can't just be. Women value men who don't seem to be living by others' dictates -- men who are spontaneous and fun and don't have a faraway look in their eyes because they're trying to recall something they heard on some dating webinar."

Brava!
And you owe me a new keyboard.

"Women value men who don't seem to be living by others' dictates..." Seriously? Most of the women I know think their wise dictates are all a man needs to know or follow.

The other side of the coin:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/things-a-man-should-never-say-first-in-a-relationship/

Never tell a woman she is beautiful before you have had sex with her. She won't respect you in the morning.

I'll never forget the first time my boyfriend told me he loved me. We were 16 and 18 and had been together 3 months. "I love you. I can see myself with you for a long time, like... 10 months or more."

That was 9 years ago. The fact that he said it first or that it came with a 10-month shelf life means a whole lot of nothing in the grander picture of our relationship. I just don't see the point in all the games and 'rules' people use when dating... I guess I don't have much experience in it though.

I don't know a single girl (myself included) that has dropped the "I love you" first to their boyfriends. I knew I loved my boyfriend (now husband of 3 months) before he said it to me, but I waited until he was ready and until he said it first. Isn't that pretty standard?

The LW sounds like he got burned with a girl that wasn't that into him when he put himself out there. She probably also wasn't showing him signs that she was also in love with him too. It's not a game - just common sense. When someone loves you, it's pretty obvious. And when a man says "I love you" first to a woman, at the right time as Amy points out, then I believe it actually increases his value and level of attraction to the woman.

"Have I told you I've started drinking the blood of freshly killed unicorns?"

God, if I had a dime for every time I heard THAT.

Also: Hee hee. Very funny.

But the reason guys learn Game (from Heartiste among others) is precisely *because* they don't act like Ms. Alkon's alpha-sounding boyfriend. It's really an unfair comparison. Betas need to learn by "acting as if" and "faking it until they make it."

Beta guys are usually desperate (especially to keep a decent-looking woman) and often throw out "I love you" too soon and too frequently. Thus, they need to be warned against this error that makes them seem "gross and gooey" or just unattractively needy. Part of learning Game is learning to be appropriate, which alpha-ish guys already know, but beta guys often don't.

Men grow up being told that women can't wait to hear those words, and their little hearts just melt when we say them. In real life it only applies if the woman has attraction feelings for him, too...hence the minefield.
I tell women that I've known for years how I feel, and they respond with "No you don't" or something insulting. I don't stick around with them.

The reason I bring up the dating gurus is that they have had a lot of good insights for me--after the fact, though. I don't read them and then go out and do this-and-such.
One thing they don't mention is-- toxic life issues that are tearing down the women's self esteem. It's when a man is most likely to offer a little ego-boost, and it blows up in his face instead. That's what I seem to run into.
I just saw a blurb about a Dove soap promotion, saying that only 4% of women feel they are beautiful. The rest are suffering from serious insecurity, no? Their men TRY to reassure them, but they get a backlash instead.
When I told my Pirate Wench "I hate you!", she took it a lot better. I was holding her down and mooching on her when I said it.

Oh yeah-- God forbid that I should try to be or act like an Alpha Male! I've known women who need that kind of man, and they're way too much work. It's too much competition, too.

But the reason guys learn Game (from Heartiste among others) is precisely *because* they don't act like Ms. Alkon's alpha-sounding boyfriend. It's really an unfair comparison. Betas need to learn by "acting as if" and "faking it until they make it."

Exactly.

A large percentage of the male population consists of nerdy accountant, engineer, blue collar labor type people. Up until 20-30 years ago, most of these men managed to pair off with women who were similar to them in "market value" - ie. they could "just BE" in Amy's terms. But most women today are like Amy and seek the men who can just "BE" and also be dangerous and strong.

One can argue about the pick-up artists motives or the value of their advice/game-plans, but they have definitely opened my eyes to the realities of the current dating landscape. When I am honest with myself about how men and women truly behave (or perhaps more accurately, how *I* and the women in my life have behaved), the reality of Alpha/Beta males and a female's attraction are stark, striking, and even a little frightening. Most women, in my opinion, are not honest with themselves. They SAY they want one thing, but behave in a very different manner. For a Beta male who does not naturally attract women, to "just BE" is a road to rejection, ridicule, confusion, and despair.

Confidence and self-esteem are attractive in both alpha AND beta males. The distinction you are making here between alpha and beta is meaningless. It is possible for a guy to be a 5'6" 150 lb accountant, of slender build and average looks, and still be very attractive - if he takes good care of himself, dresses reasonably well, conducts himself appropriately, doesn't try to be someone he isn't (like alpha) and is content with who he is. There is no need for "faking it" and if a beta guy needs to "fake it" for a long period of time, it will eventually show and that IS unattractive.

But don't take my word for it; read what this psychologist has to say about research regarding what people find attractive in potential mates. big hint: personal hygiene.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201111/being-beautiful-or-handsome-is-easier-you-think

Yes, there are women who only want alpha males, but they are NOT the majority.

I've NEVER been interested in alpha male types; I've always been drawn to the quiet, smart, funny, skinny, geeky types, who are okay with being geeks (who are also clean, and smell good, and wear cool/nice clothes). They are just a lot more interesting to be with than the textbook alpha males.

Oh, plus there's this ... what women love about men.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ironshrink/201210/what-women-love-about-men

What the hell is all this Alpha-Beta bullshit? Feh.

First of all LW, getting Amy to instruct men isn’t very Alpha, plus it won’t work. All you’ve done is put all the men reading here in the listening zone - “The pretty redheaded lady is talking. Smile and nod. Wonder what’s on TV?”

Secondly, you need to re-orient your focus. It doesn’t matter what you say, it’s whether you’re in present time. You’re with this female. Are you paying attention? Or did you just implement Plan A - “Look, how Alpha I am! Not ever gonna say, ‘I wuv oo, snookums’ first.”

For god’s sake, quit trying to be something, and be what you are. Say what you feel like saying, even “I love you.” She’ll either hear you or she won’t. If she’s ready to hear that, she’ll hear it if you feel it, whether you say it or not. Have some trust in the biology of all this. You can’t plan out every step. Just dance. This dance, with this lady, not some pre-packaged choreography you dreamed up when you were eighteen and reading too much Ayn Rand.

Third, I’m a Beta male, and you should be so lucky. I’m good with it. Beta’s are the males around the Alpha who get things done while the Alpha is busy being dominant. I am a very strong Beta. I’m glad somebody wants to be boss, but seriously, if you’re weak poser Alpha, I’ll kick your sorry ass outta here. Even if you’re a strong Alpha, don’t get crosswise with me. Just tell me what you want done, and get out of the way.

As for the “don’t be Beta ‘cause all the girls are looking for Alphas” advice being peddled by Heartiste, I’m here to second Amy’s judgment on that. Nonsense. I have to admit that every good relationship I’ve had began when some woman picked up my option, but I think that’s just a personal tic. There have been interesting and exciting women in sufficient amount.

The woman I have been with for the last 17 years is an Alpha++ female. She’s in a male-dominated business, and she has virtually no people skills. Job oriented, y’know – doesn’t need your personal drama on the worksite. It’s not that she needs to be in charge, so much as she can’t tolerate anyone else being in charge of her. We bang heads from time to time - woman’s got a forehead nigh unto a Klingon - but we work it out.

It all works out, if you’re just present in the moment. By “works out” I mean you find out she’s a poser too, or you get your heart broken, or she gets her heart broken, or you both get your hearts broken, or you find true love, or everything in any combination. You know, something real .

Never mind this Alpha/Beta posing. It ain’t true, and it doesn’t matter. Just don’t be a Gamma. They suck.

Anyway, I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They’re especially stupid when they try to act like Alphas in order to get laid.

I've NEVER been interested in alpha male types; I've always been drawn to the quiet, smart, funny, skinny, geeky types, who are okay with being geeks

In academic environments, women find these kinds of men attractive because they exhibit social dominance. Maybe in silicon valley it's the same.

But when I moved from college to the big city it was clear why it was that there were so many mercenary guys pursuing law and MBA degrees.

Read that post. Pathetic. I stand by my statement that this sort of advice is needed by guys whose problem isn't the timing of this or that but the fact that they cannot just BE, and need clever calculations to keep a woman from throwing them over.

That fact is regrettable, but it's not guys' fault. When women start rewarding nice guys more than guys who follow Leykis' advice, they will find that more guys are nice.

There are plenty of nice guys, and plenty of nice guys get the girl. Problem is, too many men confuse being nice with being a pussy.

A woman will tell you she's ready to hear them by telling you first.

Ah, advice on how to manipulate women from the perspective that women are manipulating you first. Yeah, it's totally sharing his feelings that's this guy's problem.

In academic environments, women find these kinds of men attractive because they exhibit social dominance.

I find those kinds of men attractive because I like someone who can giggle with me about Doctor Who and then turn around and talk about something I've never even heard of. I like people who get excited about things, so I'm drawn to geeks of all kinds, be they big, strong manly men or skinny librarians. Seriously, I'm not at all into, say, botany, but if a guy legitimately loves talking about plants with me, I find that appealing (assuming he can talk about other stuff, too). I'm a geek for geeks, and social dominance isn't the issue. It's definitely more about Amy's "just BE and be okay with that," which I think more men (and women) should embrace.

> I like someone who can giggle with me about
> Doctor Who...

> I'm drawn to geeks of all kinds...

> I'm a geek for geeks...

Except the math doesn't work very well for men. In any "geek" type of activity or interest I've ever been involved in, over 90% of the participants are male...

There just aren't many women like you around (in percentage terms), yet you're generalizing from your experiences.

#6 never said the math DID work well for me, Snoopy.

oops - *MEN

Snoopy, I'm not trying to generalize my own experience in the way you say. What I'm generalizing is that mentally healthy, emotionally aware women (like me) tend to go for men who are also mentally healthy and emotionally aware. Other personality traits are subject to preference. I go for geeky guys, but someone else here may prefer the super-athletic type. What matters to us is that you don't try too hard to be something else. As Amy said, just BE. Trust me, the women you would actually want to spend time with find that appealing.

For those geek guys that can't find a date at typical geek places: you can still be your geek self while broadening your experiences. You can go where there are women without buying into the competitive, alpha-male singles scene.

As Amy said, just BE. Trust me, the women you would actually want to spend time with find that appealing.

They will find it appealing enough to JBF. I speak from experience.

The "Red pill" wisdom is not about being fake, it's first and foremost about realizing the truth about masculinity and femininity. It's interesting that Amy is into sociobiology and has even praised Mystery, but has so far been hostile to Heartiste, Kay etc.

You can't trick someone into feeling a certain way about you. If you succeed, for a little while, you're only robbing yourself of time. Women aren't prizes or trophies. If you hook the wrong one, she'll leave or cheat eventually, and you'll get hurt. Don't follow stupid rules

This letter to the Attractive Women's Union made me pause.

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/tus/2727869752.html

You can't trick someone into feeling a certain way about you.

I wish that it weren't true, but you can (with women anyway).

Even more disturbingly: if you don't "trick" her, she will stop feeling "a certain way" about you even though you have been together for years and are married with children. In today's environment, this is an excuse for her to destroy your life and your children's lives - didn't you hear about "Eat, Pray, Love"?

It's been pointed out by a man of wisdom that when women say that you should "be yourself" what they really mean is that you should behave in a way that's "congruent". Not many men could pull off being a math professor who wears a leather jacket and rides a motorcycle.

But if you are indecisive or just don't care about things, you should nonetheless be decisive. If you are not confident, act confident anyway. If you like to be open and frank, get over it and be taciturn.

This letter to the Attractive Women's Union made me pause.

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/tus/2727869752.html

Ha! Dude should've left an email address. There are lots of women who will be turned on by your I'm-outta here letter. It's funny and honest, in an emo-Wah way - kind of like Howard Wallowitz under fluorescent lights and in front of a three-way mirror naked. Brutal self examination.

If you are repulsed by that image, keep in mind Wallowitz got the girl. Can you imagine how many ladies out there are also tired of the Alpha-male poser game? Screw honesty, most of 'em will settle for transparency.

And transparently this guy is angry and smart and has some sand the Marines would be happy to get hold of. The hardest and best advice I ever got was from my Dad. "If you're in a crooked game, grab the stakes, tip over the table, shoot out the lights and run like hell."

More easily said than done, and it's not all that easy to say. Well said, Dude. Well done. But man, you shoulda left an email address.

His inability to uppercase "I" is a deal-breaker.

Minos you are full of shit.

Women don't want him because he's passive aggressive. They might be able to tolerate passive aggressive if 1) he makes money (which he doesn't) OR 2) he's attractive (which again he admits he isn't).

I saw a similar post on craigslist in Los Angeles. Guy was not attractive (had a pic, he was super fat), never had a girlfriend, was 45 years old, suffered from sexual abuse (I read his whole story). At the end of his rant he still wanted an attractive woman. The problem with these guys is they still hold unrealistic expectations of what they can get.

So you have nothing going for yourself and yet.....attractive women are supposed to settle for that because you are you?

And what adult woman is turned on by "emo letters" and "I'm outta here attitude". NONE. Maybe 16 year old girls.

In the end brutal self examination is what you do in front of your therapist.

I had one guy with Little Man Syndrome turn it into an order, as in after our 3rd or 4th month of dating he said "We are still together, so you must love me now."

*snicker* I gave myself an early birthday present and dumped his sorry ass.

Jet Tibet:

It is true. You can manipulate someone into staying for a while or behaving a certain way, or trick them into thinking you're less emotionally invested than you are, but everything will come out in the end. I really believe this. I think valuing someone has a lot to do with how much you respect their character, and how attracted you are to them - if you value someone just because you think they might leave, or could do better than you, that's not truly valuing them, that's just fear of losing. Eventually that fear will subside.