I must be cynical. Lately, I find my response to the relationship difficulties in your columns seem to end the same way. "Dump him already." If you've got a boyfriend that isn't into orgasms and you are, dump him.

The suggestion that she give a it try for three weeks is reasonable.

And the fact that he's avoiding his own deeper issues is very astute. Though I will say that his approach is not unlike Al-Anon or other addictions: you must never, never, never, never, never touch it again! And you're never, ever, ever, ever cured. You're always, always, always, always an addict.

Although obviously, Overeaters Anonymous takes a different approach, since obviously, you cannot conquer an overeating addiction by never eating again. One wonders why they never bothered to examine this inconsistency. If an overeater must learn to eat in moderation, why can't an alcoholic learn to drink in moderation?

Eh, they can all go shove a telephone pole where the sun don't shine. I will not be cowed into drinking milk for the rest of my life, because of some fear-mongering tactics that tell me I must avoid even coming in contact with alcohol.

"If an overeater must learn to eat in moderation, why can't an alcoholic learn to drink in moderation?"

In my experience, some alcoholics can. However, the majority of alcoholics I've met tell me that once they start drinking, they simply cannot control themselves and start the whole cycle again. I know one alcoholic who came to his parents' house and saw some orange juice in the refrigerator. He took one sip of it, and it tasted REALLY good. He then realized that there was champagne in the juice. His first thought after determining this was, "Oh, I can drink some more and nobody is going to find out!" He then got a hold of himself and didn't drink anymore, but found that impulse very difficult to deny.

Amy is spot on about the addiction thing, as is Patrick. I was an alcoholic (or am a recovering one, depending on your view on the matter) and the analogy of the over eater makes sense in this case.

Could I drink in moderation now that I have licked my heavy drinking habit? I don't know. But, I can lead a full life and have healthy relationships without ever drinking again. Therefore, why risk it? I have the luxury of never having a drink again and it won't negatively affect anyone else.

Sex is not that way. You're simply not going to have a healthy relationship with a woman unless you can give her a good and regular seeing to. Just as overeaters need to learn healthy eating habits, this guy's going to have to come up with a solution that doesn't involve relegating someone he loves to celibacy.

"If an overeater must learn to eat in moderation, why can't an alcoholic learn to drink in moderation?"

Actually this could conceivably have a biological basis, if alcohol simply interferes with the neural mechanics of self-control .. individual genetic variation could make some more susceptible. (I'm not sure if this has been proven in alcoholism, but it is certainly theoretically possible.)

This letter is very sad, I think it's such a waste when people don't just allow themselves to enjoy sex in a healthy way ... it's such a beautiful, fun, natural (and note, if you're religious, God-created) aspect of being human. I don't understand why so many in Western society are obsessed with regarding sex and lust as unhealthy and something to feel guilty about. I wonder if this guy wasn't brainwashed by his church or parents that sex and dirty thoughts and masturbation are "wrong" and now he forever feels guilty about it, or something --- creating an unnecessary cycle of shame.

Re-reading and re-thinking: For some reason I just can't imagine a 'red-blooded' male trying to "give up traditional intercourse". I wonder if it's something else - maybe he's actually gay and in the closet or something.

This LW is clearly very loving and supporting and trying to be understanding, but asking someone to give up intercourse like this, for some silly irrational reason, is just beyond reasonable :/ If he's really just confused, maybe he could still be talked out of this - explain how much you enjoy orgasms etc., and that you don't want to give it up.

Amy, I am really enjoying your advice lately. It has good, productive, educated tips on how to really work through problems - based on something real, not gut feeling. These people wouldn't be writing for advice if they hadn't already worked out that the relationship is worth trying for. This woman may ultimately decide that it's not going to work, but she now has some reasonable tools and knowledge that will help her figure her way through it.

This is why you are the advice goddess, and the "dump him already" crowd are not.

There is A LOT more to karezza than NOT having orgasms, and there is some very interesting research supporting the idea that all orgasms, all the time, are not beneficial for all people.

One of the shortcomings of current sexual research is that researchers stop looking at what goes on in the body after orgasm. It turns out that there are some significant and measurable post-orgasm effects in the brain that negatively affect neurotransmitters, and these effects continue for up to two weeks. Orgasm is a peak event that feels great, but it has costs (just like anything else).

For more information on how sex affects the brain, check out this karezza website:
http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

It's a great introduction to neurochemical brain goings-on in general, as well the effects of orgasm on the brain.

Lobster - he is not asking her to give up intercourse, he is asking her to try a different method. Karezza, when practiced properly, can go on for hours and be practiced daily. It's about using sexual energy and moderating it at a low intensity for a long time, rather than rushing towards an orgasm and having the experience be over a short while later.

@Angel "Lobster - he is not asking her to give up intercourse"

Angel, from the letter itself, quote: "I see from the way he talks how important it is for him that we give up traditional intercourse"

"It turns out that there are some significant and measurable post-orgasm effects in the brain that negatively affect neurotransmitters"

Scientific source and more detail please?

"Orgasm is a peak event that feels great, but it has costs"

Scientific source and more detail please on the claimed 'costs' of orgasm?

Here's a starting point for a bit of further reading:

https://www.google.com/search?q=scientific+benefits+of+orgasm&oq=scientific+benefits+of+orgasm

I called the research "interesting" because sex researchers have the same bias that you do - that orgasm cannot possibly have any negative consequences, so they don't design research to look for them. (Gosh, does that sound familiar? Low-carb research, anyone? Oh, that's right, carbs are good for you, especially whole grains, they taste good and make you feel good, so why look for negative consequences from carb/grain consumption?) So yes, there isn't a nice solid body of research on this topic, and there won't be until a critical mass of sex researchers take off their blinders and consider the possibility that orgasm has costs as well as benefits.

Evolution isn't a benevolent god - it's focus is on propagating genes, not making individual people happy. It is well within the realm of possibility that orgasm evolved as a way to encourage successful propagation, which also happens to take a toll on health when overindulged in. Orgasm also developed in an evolutionary different that is very different from modern environments. Keeping an open mind on this topic does not make anyone ignorant or Puritanical.

Karezza in one form or another has existed for at least hundreds of years (probably longer) - it just happened to have received the name of "karezza" from the Quaker woman in question, who was not a Puritanical nitwit, either. Karezza has been practiced in cultures that had no Puritans, Christians, or anti-sex people in it whatsoever. A lot of cultures recognized that orgasm had a cost - athletes refrained from sex before competitions, warriors before battles. Those cultures also made babies, so even without the benefit of a solid body of research, those people were able to listen to their own bodies and make informed decisions regarding both reproduction and individual happiness.

And finally, the Catholic Church has condemned karezza, because, you know - every sperm is sacred.

OH GOD!

I had someone try to pull this on me once... without telling me. So he was holding back while we messed around. And I was putting in a lot of effort and like, "Why is this not working?" and totally getting a complex. I don't think it was Karezza I think it was some similar non-orgasmic practice with a more eastern/yogic focus. He had similar addiction issues he didn't discuss with me until after we were messing around.

This needs to be talked about beforehand.

I still wonder if he was really doing some weird practice or if I just didn't do it for him. He seemed upset when I ended things, though.

Honestly it felt like a power trip. Like haha, she's doing her best to please me and I'm not going to let her.

Take any activity people enjoy, and you'll have a certain group of buzzkills trying to tell us we should stop doing it: sex, orgasms, eating good food, fun games, etc.

For Christ's sake. Life is hard enough without artificially limiting the joy we get out of it. And we're not getting any rewards in the afterlife, so enjoy getting off while you can.

"I called the research "interesting" because sex researchers have the same bias that you do"

But that's just the problem, you haven't actually posted any real research at all.

"It is well within the realm of possibility"

Sure it is, but you've made this leap from 'within the realm of possibility' to 'is'. It might be within the realm of possibility, but there is no evidence for it. Reality doesn't work by just accepting everything that might potentially be possible - if you are the one making unusual claims, the burden of proof is on you to prove those claims, not just demand we accept absurd conjecture and extrapolation from the flimsiest of premises.

The Goddess writes: Angela, I've removed your links to this site. Their stuff is not science-based.

Amy, that seems a bit Orwellian of you. We can make up our own minds without you deciding for us what we should or shouldn't look at.

Back to the funny...

"You're simply not going to have a healthy relationship with a woman unless you can give her a good and regular seeing to."

Ah. Delightful phrase. Just one notch below "a vigorous rogering"!

I understand, Amy. Thanks for the clarification.

Angela, go milk a wet cow with a pirated telephone pole in your car!

Who the frack has time for hours and hours or orgasmless sex except for the chronically unemployed?

One of the shortcomings of current sexual research is that researchers stop looking at what goes on in the body after orgasm.

It turns out that there are some significant and measurable post-orgasm effects in the brain that negatively affect neurotransmitters, and these effects continue for up to two weeks.

So if no one with a science degree researches the post orgasm effects then how could you know there are post orgasm effects?

"So if no one with a science degree researches the post orgasm effects then how could you know there are post orgasm effects"

I wasted my time ('so y'all don't have to') and read Angel's link above and it can basically be summed up as:

* Dopamine plays a role in reward and addiction
* Research on RATS (yes, rats :/), it is claimed, found lower testosterone receptor levels for up to a week or two after rat sex
* (Some handwaving, then a giant leap and connecting of multiple non-existent dots)
* Oxytocin!
* 'Therefore', orgasms are bad and Karezza good, mkay?

It's kind of ironically sad when science gets twisted into the foundation of cultish beliefs. It's difficult to emphasize just on how many levels this is unscientific garbage. Firstly no references are given for the claims about rats. Secondly, and this is so basic that it's embarrassing to have to mention it, but 'rule one' about studies on rats and mice is that they don't necessarily apply to humans. Because, you know, we aren't the same as rats and mice. Third, it is just blindly assumed that the claimed testosterone level changes constitute something akin to a "low battery". Fourth, it is blindly assumed that (even if it were a 'low battery') that this is harmful ... I mean, we all have rechargable batteries that regularly run low and need recharging, and they can do this for years no problem. Then the article makes a few absurd leaps that are just baffling to get to 'orgasms bad, karezza is the real magic of love'. The article even uses phrases like, I kid you not, "Sure enough" as placeholders for where causative reasoning should appear.

Warning: Your IQ will get lower if you read that link.

I should note, to be clear, it's not impossible that there exists some legitimacy to some of the claims - however, they haven't even remotely been indicated or proven, they are entirely pure and wild conjecture. It's not "bias", as Angel claims, to not blindly accept any old pure and wild conjecture.

If orgasms were harmful, I would imagine there should be obvious research by now indicating this ... e.g. people who have orgasms nearly daily, should have 'obviously' greater amounts of health problems and/or live shorter than those who have few orgasms. (Even if this were true, you would also have to first untangle various other variables before you could make any scientific claims.)

This also doesn't mean though that Karezza might not hold at least some 'useful' nuggets in it. E.g. it might simply be, say, that lowering *expectations* around sex, can contribute to enjoying it more and more fulfilling relationships, in SOME circumstances. However, this would not point to an actual benefit of Karezza - but an incidental benefit of something else that is not Karezza. E.g. if your relationship is suffering because you have high expectations of two blowjobs + sex a day, it might be that simply lowering your expectations to more realistic levels could 'in and of itself' improve the relationship - a Karezza practitioner would then claim that's proof somehow of their beliefs, when really it's not.

We tried Karezza after reading about it in Psychology Today and looking at their website. It sounded interesting so we tried it for a month or so. To some extent I tried it because at my age (66) the equipment is not working all that well anyway. I liked not having the pressure of the expectation of orgasm and the closeness but my wife felt we were wasting a lot of time. Since one of my main motivations was to please her, we quit.
Reading their website there is a lot of "New Age" mumbo jumbo that put me off a bit but they do have some plausible arguments. I doubt I would try it if I was 40, let alone the age of the LW.
Perhaps, if they discuss it he would help her to orgasm even if he chooses to avoid them and then soon he may decide he doe not want to be left out.

He needs to hook up with my pirate wench. She hates sex.

I see a lot of reasoned responses here. I'm going to just go with Hey! Conflicted! You are clearly sexually incompatible with this man. And that's a toxic thing to build a relationship around.

UPDATE FROM THE LW (aka me):
We settled the sexual thing, but time and distance complicate matters, and we broke it off. Now I'm dealing with the ramifications of "We can still be friends," for reasons having little to nothing to do with Karezza.

I'd ask for advice, but that's probably for another day and another column.