Diamond rings aren't totally useless. She'll always have a glass cutter on hand (literally).

That aside, Amy, you provided some interesting insight into the message conveyed by a diamond ring. Arguably, he could made a nice capital investment to show his commitment with something practical, like a nice luxury car. But those need maintenance, repairs, insurance and eventually replacement. A diamond ring needs none of those things. In addition to being a nice capital investment, it will always be there.

Very good insight, and excellent advice, as always, Amy.

Letter writer,

You're an idiot. Read your letter again and you'll see what I mean. Sorry. Of all the many layered, too much to encapsulate, nonsense that you wrote, the crux of the matter is this: "We're both too needy to live apart."

Fix that and the rest will become clear.

i dunno, fondue is pretty delicious... Mmm... Fat AND carbs! Bad for you no matter what diet you follow! Cant beat that!

@ Patrick, who wrote:

'In addition to being a nice capital investment, it will always be there.'

A diamond ring is actually a terrible capital investment. It's a viciously-rigged market (because diamonds are actually as common as dirt and the supply has to be rigorously controlled to maintain the lie that they are rare), and the ring has only one purpose - as Amy describes, to act as the demonstrable talisman that he was willing to spend a lot of scratch on her.

Second-hand diamond rings typically fetch less than 50% of their new sale price. For the currently-fashionable gaudy 'pave' and similar styles, even less.

If you don't believe me on either count, suggest you visit a fascinating website called 'exboyfriendjewelry.com' where you can see both the real reasons that women want diamond rings, and their true market value.

llater,

llamas

When BF moved in with me and my girls, I told him I didn't want a ring, I wanted him to keep his johnson in his pants unless he was taking it out for me. If he couldn't do that, he couldn't move in. We've been together 10 years. We split everything 50/50 (except housework - he takes care of the yard, I take care of the inside of the house, but he does do his own laundering of his hunting gear). We've been loyal to each other, so it's working thus far.

He did buy me nice tanzanite jewelry though, couple of rings, necklace, earrings. So there's that.

Ack! Bad linkie job! Here's one of the rings he bought me:

http://www.stauer.com/images/stauer/products/w5593_800.jpg

Followed the link, and I dunno about ex-boyfriend jewelry... they have a 6 carat emerald on 14 carat gold. 6 carats is a HUGE rock and 14 carat gold is not what most fancy necklaces are made of, usually the gold in Western countries is 18 carat or 22 in Eastern countries. I have a hard time buying that someone would put such a fancy rock on 14 carat gold.

Of course they were selling at 1,100 so it must be a very poor quality emerald but still.

I read somewhere that the reason diamond rings are given as engagement presents goes back to the time when pre-marital sex was strongly frowned upon, yet more or less accepted once the couple got engaged. Therefore, she gave him her body and he gave her a diamond. This way, if the engagement broke up before marriage she might be considered "damaged goods" in the marital market but at least she got to keep something of substantial monetary value as compensation.

Amy, thank you for NOT going down path I think most advice columnists would have, which is to deride this woman for wanting an expensive ring.

The impracticality of a big diamond ring is part of what makes it so attractive. Women know that a man who is head-over-heels will do impractical things for her. It is a very high-status token of devotion.

I love the song "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend," but I have to assume that when that song was written diamonds held on to their value a little better and /were/ a form of security. Now you'll never get anything close to what he paid for it.

Flynne, tanzanite is my favorite gem to look at, just not my favorite to wave around in front of people's eyes!! :)

I bought myself a ring, but that didn't work. I felt unvalued and ashamed. We fought often, and he ended up moving out. He wants me back, but I don't want to live with him without the stupid ring. We're both too needy to live apart. Can we salvage this?

Gotta go with WhistleDick on this one, harsh though he is. LW, I think you already know the answer to this one. If you believe what the engagement ring is supposed to symbolize, it seems to me like you're trying to buy something that isn't really there. If that's the case, there's not much to salvage. From your description, the dude's needy, self-centered, and cheap. Do you really want that in your house?

My husband proposed last year with a beautiful vintage ring! It had been his grandmother's purchased for her by her husband in 1948. It is soooo incredibly special to have not to mention incredibly beautiful. I understand why lw feels under valued but I doubt it has to do with a ring. He seems pretty thoughtless and after a year or so don't you KNOW? If you have two children what are you doing moving a man in your home without a formal commitment? My husband didn't interact with my daughter on a meaningful level till we knew we were going to spend our lives together.

I've said it before, but I continue to be baffled at how many women are attracted to douchebags when there are so many lonely men out there who would make wonderful husbands and boyfriends. The LW already had at least one failed relationship (with the father(s) of her children) and now chases another one. What will likely happen is that the current boyfriend will impregnate and abandon her. And she will learn nothing from the experience.

"Of course they were selling at 1,100 so it must be a very poor quality emerald but still."

Could be synthetic. I've been reading some things saying that Eastern Europe is about to flood the market with synthetic gems of all kinds, including diamonds. Should be interesting.

I assume that the ring also has emotional value as a visible symbol. A gold bar has more intrisic value and holds its value better, but wearing one on your finger is kind of impractical.

This guy wanted to move in with you AND YOUR KIDS but not formally commit. It's convienient for him to move his ass into your home with your family, but not convienient for him to get engaged, let alone married. Sounds like a catch.

I used to work in a jewelry store. People who came in to sell their old engagement rings were always shocked when they were only offered 1/2 of what they (or their ex) paid. Engagement rings aren't a good investment. Diamonds may be, but that's only if you can get them wholesale and you actually know what you're doing.

I'm an incredibly frugal person. Not cheap, mind you. I will spend money on something with value. But I don't think a diamond ring holds much value. Like several have said, resale value is awful. And like Ilamas said, the market is rigged.

My husband knows not to buy me expensive jewelry, because it's lost on me. I have a beautiful gold band that cost $600. But I also have a pricey german car, because THAT has value to me.

To each his own. I doubt that I'm all that different from a lot of other women. Not all of us care about expensive jewelry.

And while I'm at it, what the hell is a chocolate diamond? Is this just a flawed stone?

And while I'm at it, what the hell is a chocolate diamond? Is this just a flawed stone?

Posted by: Laurie at December 18, 2013 12:29 PM

Diamonds come in many different colors, depending on the impurities and conditions under which they form.

Ever seen the Hope diamond? It is a deep blue.

White diamonds, in my opinion are the most boring gems on earth. But they have been valued highly in the past probably because of white being a bridal color.

"Chocolate" diamonds are brown. They are trendy right now...

I read a whole book on South Africa and it had a big section on the founder of DeBeers.

A couple of interesting things:

1. Gay guy
2. Wanted to bring the U.S. back under British rule

The most interesting thing is they found too many diamonds in S.Africa so what did they do?

1. Held them so the market would "dry up"
2. Created the tradition that women need a diamond engagement ring. This idea didn't really exist.
3. Buying a "used" diamond is like buying a giant turd and doesnt show a mans commitment. (Again this concept was created by a marketing company).
3. Man-made diamonds arent real diamonds.

Oh and the diamond industry (& history) is just as nasty as that of drug cartels.

Anytime a man elevates a woman's value, there's the real danger that he will lose value in her subconscious. It's why pattern "Nice Guys" famously fail at trying to attract women, by buying and begging for their attention and favors.

I agree, jefe. I think the best bet is to buy the equivalent of whatever you and your fiancées social circle is doing unless there's some compelling reason not to, like she's against diamonds or whatever (in which case you can still blow a nice wad on non-blood sustainably-mined diamonds or get her an acre of engagement rainforest or whatever).

But in general I hold to the 60-80th percentile rule. Like dressing... how fancy should you go? Not too fancy, don't want to look show-offy or overdressed. But slightly better than average is good.

lrj-I want to see the vintage ring!!

I also have a vintage diamond engagement ring that I really love from the 1920s. here it is:

http://i315.photobucket.com/albums/ll452/linbot1/da1c4803-0448-45de-966c-7b0e6e04b038.jpg

I picked it out which is why I love it...hubby would have bought me a plain solitaire...this is more "me" and it's old enough that I don't have to worry about the whole blood diamond thing.(I could be wrong there..)

chocolate diamonds are nothing but a marketing tool to sell poor quality colored stones. Notice how the commercial states they are the only place you can get them? That's b/c the name chocolate diamonds is copyrighted so no one else is allowed to use it.
And "shit brown diamonds" didn't sounds nearly as nice!

I'll stand by what I said about diamonds being a good capital investment. On the grounds that the recipient didn't pay a thing for it. So, if she sells it for 1000, that's one grand she wouldn't have had.

Patrick, does it count that I got him a decent discount on the ring?
I thought he'd faint when I said- I really like it but it's too steep...can you do any better on the price?
They knocked 300 pounds off (about $450.) He said he was embarrassed so I asked if he'd rather pay more? Then I taught him how to haggle and he's now good at it.
And I got a great deal on the wedding band and we paid for it out of paypal/ebay money from selling stuff and that's how we paid for the wedding.

I'll stand by what I said about diamonds being a good capital investment. On the grounds that the recipient didn't pay a thing for it. So, if she sells it for 1000, that's one grand she wouldn't have had.

Posted by: Patrick at December 19, 2013 11:31 AM

Guns are better. Never sold one for less than I paid for it. They hold their value nicely against inflation.

I'll stand by what I said about diamonds being a good capital investment. On the grounds that the recipient didn't pay a thing for it. So, if she sells it for 1000, that's one grand she wouldn't have had.

Posted by: Patrick at December 19, 2013 11:31 AM

This is only true if she is banking on the relationship to fail

"We're both too needy to live apart."

So you've got that going for you.

Which is nice.

"Anytime a man elevates a woman's value, there's the real danger that he will lose value in her subconscious. It's why pattern "Nice Guys" famously fail at trying to attract women, by buying and begging for their attention and favors."

No, "pattern Nice Guys" elevate women overmuch because they are only pretending, a scam which some women are all too willing to exploit for their own benefit. Smart, experienced, decent women shy away from men who treat them like queens because they know it's just an act. Why don't men try treating women like people, with ordinary decency, honesty, and consideration? Who knows, it just might work.

Treating a woman with ordinary decency, honesty, and consideration is a great way to end up friends. I disagree with some of the specifics which tend to come up around it in the discussions here but I do think Amy's on the money as usual in saying the default expectation is for the woman to show interest and the guy to act on it by asking her out.

The distinction between these two situations has come up perhaps more often for me than it does for most. I wouldn't really self describe as demisexual but I am rather that direction. I've found that if I'm not careful about managing the distinction I'll get filed under friend or gay before I've gotten to know a gal well enough to find out if I've the hots for her. I'm also generally described as pretty sweet and have had to learn it's typically best to somewhat less kind than I naturally would to avoid getting filed under pattern nice guy.

So, Nancy, while it might just work my experience is usually it doesn't. This is no bad thing; anyone who'd hook up with someone just for treating them decently probably needs to take a step back and get their emotional needs sorted out before hopping into a relationship.