LW is why men should never ask women [except our host] for dating advice. I found this out years ago, asking why women hate Nice Guys... "Oh, we really LIKE Nice Guys, don't stop being one, you'll be perfect for SOMEONE ELSE." I found my answer, though.

"Don't worry if you come off a little nervous or awkward. " This is very good advice. Here's a little secret: If you're coming off nervous and awkward, it's actually a huge turn on.

Men try to come off as confident and it's very important that we do come off that way when dealing with women. We aren't confident at all. Especially when dealing with women. I'm not a good looking guy, but I've had a (very) few women initiate conversation in this way. I'm also terrible at reading signals. If she starts a conversation while exuding confidence, I'll assume she is just starting a conversation for conversation's sake. If there is a little shakiness in her voice or something, I know that she is actually making a move and not just making conversation. To think that I've affected a woman in such a way is a big deal. It makes you feel pretty darned manly. Also, our protective instincts want to help this poor little flower and reward her for her bold move. We will ask you out.

Seriously. If a woman nervously and awkwardly begins a conversation with us, our dick will move a little.

You draw them in with your eyes.

Make eye contact, and as soon as you do, look down and away. Wait a moment and look up and see if they're looking at you. If they are, repeat. If they are not, try again a couple times and if they don't look at you move on to your next victim.

I am not an especially hot chick and never have been, but this eye thing works well.

I found this out years ago, asking why women hate Nice Guys... "Oh, we really LIKE Nice Guys, don't stop being one, you'll be perfect for SOMEONE ELSE."

I married a very nice guy. The difference between him and the Nice Guys I didn't date was self-confidence. My husband and I rely on each other but he does not look to me to validate himself. Too many Nice Guys would try to put me on a pedestal -- this is creepy, not attractive.

Doing people favors to obligate them into sleeping with you isn't actually very nice.

Pretending that Nice Guys are only after sex is misconstruing the problem.

I've never seen a nice guy pining after a woman where the woman had no idea the guy wanted her.

I used to be a nice guy, til I got wise to the scam, and stopped trying to be friends with women on their terms.

I ad a few women who used he lets be friends line with me, and so I treated them the same way I treated my guys friends, which basically meant they paid for their own meals which they didnt like. And giving them my honest opinion when they came to me with their relationship problems, which they hated. Its just eaiser to say no to women who say they want to be friends, cause most of them dont want to be friends, they want a self esteem booster.

In my experience single guys cant be friends with single women they are actively sexually attracted to

Coyly manipulating a guy into doing you favors knowing they'll do it because they want to sleep with you when you have no intention of doing so and you're only keeping them around to stroke your ego and do you favors, isn't nice either.

^ Everything lujlp said. Same story here. (From some women you even get some shocked and indignant looks when you don't automatically fall over yourself to fawningly join their fanclub of friendzoned guys ... they're obviously not used to it.)

Karen Straughan does a great job delving into this subject:

"... how on Earth does the mere existence of a friendzone and a man's annoyance at finding himself in it suggest that men believe women are obligated to return romantic feelings? And frankly, I don't really see what the hell is so wrong with wanting sex, and trying to convince someone you like to have it with you"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

What was the final nail in the coffin of trying to be just friends with girls was when one was upset when she asked me to help her move and I gave her the exact same excuse she gave me when I had asked for her help the month prior

Lots of Nice Guys only think they're nice guys. They're actually manipulative douches.

Every man I have ever dated has been nice. it's really the base floor where I would even consider dating someone. Most men trying to get into a woman's pants are nice, so unless he's into some PUA bullshit, he's going to be nice.

It's like women who say, "I don't understand why I'm alone. I have a really good heart."

> Every man I have ever dated has been nice

Men are generally nice to women, but even assholes are usually nice to women. The question isn't just how a guy treats you, but how he treats other human beings in general. I remember once in school I was chatting with the girlfriend of a school bully - a really aggressive guy who regularly beat up weaker kids - and I asked her something like 'why are you dating an asshole'. Her response struck me: "Huh? He's not an asshole, he's SUCH a nice guy!!" ... wtf?

But Lobster no one calls them "Nice girls" and then whines about it.

Hm, I think men don't generally call women 'losers' for having unrequited feelings, but vice versa seems like a norm. Also, men don't seem to get a kick out of having a list of girls doing him favors, while vice versa seems like a norm.

> Lots of Nice Guys only think they're nice guys. They're actually manipulative douches

I'm not sure what is meant by this .. an example might make it clearer?

The fact is we do want our partners to be nice to us, but the attraction must come first. E.g. if your hotty hot boyfriend helps fix your car, then you like him more for it, because it's nice when someone we like cares about us. OTOH if an unattractive guy helps fix your car, then you like him less. But men in the latter position aren't helping fix the car because they feel like you'll be "obligated" to give sex or love in exchange. They're doing it out of a caring impulse, that they hope to be returned - i.e. for the exact same reason your hot boyfriend helps fix your car. Wanting to do things for people we care about isn't 'manipulative', it's an instinctive impulse that decent people have (what's vulgar is taking advantage of it or denigrating it). Should men learn not be taken advantage of, sure, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to have caring/decent instincts.

What I mean is, I have known more than a few men who call themselves "nice guys." What they mean is, they're doing nice things -- listening to her problems, doing things for her, etc. -- with the expectation that eventually all this caring will lead to her going out with them. What they are NOT doing is asking these women out on dates.

When she isn't falling into his lap like it's supposed to be in the movies, he complains to his friends about how girls only like jerks. Those nice guys get not-so-nice real fast.

> What they are NOT doing is asking these women out on dates

I suspect that in most cases they don't ask because on some level they already know what the answer would be. So instead they probably hope feelings develop over time, instead of forcing the issue and being rejected immediately. I don't see how that equates to manipulation.

It's manipulation especially if they already know how she feels. They're trying to change her feelings by doing nice things, making her feel like she owes him a relationship for all the things he does for her.

These men would be a lot happier if they would just move on to people who DO want to date them.

I agree those men would be happier if they moved on, but I find your definition of "manipulation" strange ... it seems to me that if we stretch the definition of "manipulation" so far as to cover that, it would have to cover almost every kind of human action.

Side note, if the woman in the situation already knows how the guy feels, but she keeps leading him on to let him do favors for her - that is not manipulative?

> It's manipulation especially if they already know how she feels. They're trying to change her feelings by doing nice things

If my wife is angry with me and I buy her flowers to try get in her good books again, wouldn't that be "manipulation" by your definition?

Something seems wrong to me with trying to classify every decent human impulse as "manipulation".

I like the phrase "Take a look at what you have, that's what you want". If a sexual/romantic relationship with a female was what you really wanted you would have one. But for some reason, you keep ending up in these unrequitted love situations. Part of you really does want more. But another part of you is quite content to be wishing, hoping and hating. And as long as you keep blaming women's bad taste, you'll be stuck.