Ugh. What a winner we have here.

Simple rule of thumb LW: She said NO. That means NO. Unless and until she changes her vote, accept that she doesn't want you. Amy is totally right: you fetishized this idea of her whereby she would just fall into your plans no questions asked. Now you found out that your princess was in another castle...the one of the prince she actually wanted.

I'm in the camp that thinks women like this need to be more forceful when saying no.

We've got a generation of men raised by single women taught all sorts of things about what women want that quite frankly are total bullshit.

Its a bit of a catch 22 to teach guys for years that the rules have changed in regards to social interaction when they really havent.

LW the best thing you can do if you really want this girl is grow some confidence start dating her sister or her roommate or her best friend and spend all your time wringing orgasms out of her. Preferable just down the hall where you can be overheard.

> I'm in the camp that thinks women like this need to be more forceful when saying no

I don't know, I think it's basic decency to tell 'little white lies' like "not ready to date yet" ... people are mostly smart enough to interpret that as a polite 'no', and frankly, it would be rude and crappy if everyone started being honest with each other instead (e.g. "Why no, I wouldn't date you because you're fat and ugly").

The problem is not that she 'wasn't forceful enough' - he understood perfectly well what happened - the problem is that he has a low self-worth problem, and doesn't cope well with rejection - Amy's advice is spot-on. I don't think one needs to be too hard on the guy - he is asking for advice and wants help on how to make things better, he recognizes and acknowledges that his 'jilted bitterness' is probably excessive, and he is asking for advice on how to deal with the situation better, so I think bellflower's being a bit harsh. I don't see that he's trying to ignore her 'no' so why repeat that 'no means no'? He understood the 'no' quite well, hence the unfriending etc.

He understands the no now that she found someone other then him to bone, I'm betting up until that moment he thought he had a chance "when she was ready"

Eh, I don't think it's fair to say she should've been more forceful. Women who are "forceful" or even just blunt---"I don't like you that way, I only think of you as a friend"--- get shit for that, too. We don't even know that she lied. She may genuinely have felt that she wasn't ready to date at the time she was asked.

I'm not sure what rules have changed in the real world. Guys who build fantasy relationships in their heads, get jealous about a girl they never dated dating someone else, and take "no" to mean "wait a while, or try harder" have always been creeps in the real world; that stuff only works in movies (probably because movies are written by geeks and geek girls). But, well, even if rules have changed, that's life. Shit changes. You don't get to demand that other people violate their standards of comfort or behavior (being "forceful " is damn uncomfortable) just because you haven't adapted.

Really, though, we're expected to read these sorts of hints in all social situations, so it baffles me when dudes act like it's just a dating thing. If you invite a coworker (of the same sex) to do something social outside of work, definitely as friends, you're supposed to be able to tell the difference between a polite excuse to spare your and your coworker's comfort and a genuine "I can't join you this time because of a real conflict but please do include me some other time". When you apply for a job, if you're told "you're great, but we're not hiring right now" you're expected to understand that that doesn't mean you've definitely got the job as soon as it's open.

As for facebook unfriending, if you think it would help not to have that salt being rubbed in the wound for now, I would say go ahead. Given that the average facebook user has hundreds of friends there's a decent chance that no one will even notice. Of course, if you've been "liking" and "commenting" on her every post that would be noticed, but still, if it will help you get to a better place, go ahead.

> He understands the no now that she found someone other then him to bone

Do you have any evidence for this? I don't see that in the letter - it just says "Since then, she's started dating some other guy". It doesn't suggest he didn't 'get the hint' ... it sounds like he got the hint just fine, which is why his feelings were hurt by the rejection and he cut off ties by unfriending her and avoiding her. I mean what sort of 'forceful' would you advise that would have changed anything in the letter? If anything, her being rude or 'forceful' about it would just have made the entire situation worse, and added nothing of value ... if telling a guy who likes you that you're "not ready to date yet" makes things awkward, then telling a guy "No, you creep, and don't ask me again or I'll call the cops or get a restraining order" is going to make things a LOT more awkward. Honestly, a woman's 'comfort' isn't an excuse to treat other people badly ... no matter how much of a loser you think they are. Same goes for guys, for that matter.

Amy has it spot on. He just needs to figure out how to self-validate and not require women to validate him. And he should stop wasting time even worrying about this and immediately go out and try meet other girls ... the older I get, the more I realize how precious short your youth is ... he sounds young ... don't waste your youth pining after someone who isn't interested. There really are plenty of fish out there. "Women are like buses. If you miss one, just wait and there will be another one along in a few minutes"

I agree with lujlp. Maybe not forceful...but more direct. When I was single people used to tell me to tell a guy I had a boyfriend if I wasn't interested. I always thought that was too ambiguous and gave him hope if my situation changed.

I tended to say sorry I am not interested because that is what I would want someone to say to me.

There is an exercise in the 4-hour work week in which you practice going up to people and telling them you think they are attractive and asking for their phone number.

I haven't done it but I do think I might be useful to get comfortable with making a move quickly, and moving on if it is a no.

I don't think there'd be anything wrong with unfriending her in this situation, as it seems to me the only thing left here is some awkward thing, and it's probably never going to turn into anything other than this awkward thing. So what - it happens - no sense having a reminder of it in your FB feed each day.

But, I think these days you can 'mute' someone from your Facebook feed, without unfriending them? That might be the simplest way out.

> Maybe not forceful...but more direct.

I guess I don't really know what "forceful" is supposed to mean in this context. To me, if a woman politely says "Sorry, I'm not interested", or if she says, "Sorry, I'm not ready to date" .. to me it means exactly the same thing. So if someone says she should be "forceful" instead, I take that to mean she should really step it up and be nasty in some way.

LW, I think the best way to act around her is to ignore her as far as possible. If she's around, don't make eye contact, just pick any other woman in the vicinity and chat to that woman instead, about anything, whether interested in her or not. Don't browse her Facebook pics or comment on them or 'Like' them, that would be sad. I think that's the best way to save any dignity you might have lost.

> LW, I think the best way to act around her is to ignore her as far as possible

Um, I don't mean to be rude to her. Give minimal polite hellos/goodbyes etc.

Well on a technical not if you're friends are posting stuff with her in it then you will still see the comments and like regardless of your connection to her. So besides sounding a bit petty your actions will fix nada.

On a separate not and please don't flame me. Those were the exact words my now wife used on me. How ever being a fuck wet nap won't fix shit. Move on an try bagging some one else. Drop the stalker mopey bitch routine and go do shit. I walked away under the guise of "Ok not worth the effort" Got a little play from some others. Then my buddies got on me about drinking alone. Had no interest in the girl just wanted them to get off my back. Called her just to get drinks and it went from there. But seriously the winy mopey bitch thing is probably the reason she said no. So you can always fix the issue, fitness and a strong spine usually go a long way. Failing that get a Vette, well no it'll just help you get the foot in the door. Being a spineless bitch will kill it even if you have pasta rocket. A shit personality is just that a shit personality. If that was the cost of getting with she will be taking it with her.

However I sympathize because quite frankly the idea of walking through Compton at night has always been far less frightening than talking to a pretty girl.

LW is the definition of beta orbiter, and just as Amy suggests he needs to alpha-up (pay attention to what the woman does not what she says, outcome independence, go after the next girl, etc.). I just love it when Amy's advice dovetails with Heartiste's.

Well on a technical not if you're friends are posting stuff with her in it then you will still see the comments and like regardless of your connection to her. So besides sounding a bit petty your actions will fix nada.

Yes, exactly. Unfriending won't help at all unless you unfriend all your mutual friends. You'll still see her in pictures, whether you hide, unfriend or block.

People are being hard on the LW, but it looks like he respectfully took "no" for an answer, isn't feeling all entitled to this girl's affections, and is just looking for some ways to move on. And I think Amy's advice is spot-on.

Years ago, a guy I was very casually dating (but really liked) decided that standing me up was a good way to end things. And then he started dating someone I was socially connected to. We had tons of mutual friends, so I was constantly bombarded with photos of him. It sucks, and it's going to sting for a while. As for me, I went on a bit of a Facebook fast. I only logged on once a day to check event invites and to see if anyone had tagged awful photos of me or written on my wall. I totally avoided mindless newsfeed scrolling for a good three months.

People don't get a message when you unfriend them. I think you can go ahead and do it, if you're not close friends with her she won't notice.

lobster, it would never occur to me that "Sorry, I'm not interested" and "Sorry, I'm not ready to date" mean exactly the same thing, because, well, they don't. The first is a nice, socially acceptable way to say, "I don't want to go out with you." The other is a prevarication for, "Sorry, I'm not ready to date ...you. And I don't imagine I will be anytime soon." Unless, she actually meant it. And that's the main problem, it can be difficult to tell the truth from the lies.

Waaaay back when we were young and single, my poor brother actually was twice told some of the stock, "nice" lies about being busy that usually meant "no", by the same girl. Except she turned out to actually be busy, and when she realized he wasn't going to ask again, she asked him out. It never got anywhere, mostly because he had moved on, and liked her less since he thought she didn't like him. (I'm sure the girl asking the guy bit may have had something to do with it.)

There are plenty of nice ways to say "no", that mean "no". There is no need to make it harder than it has to be.

I personally believe that the only thing she's obligated to do is say no. She doesn't have to be forceful, just clear. The only way, "I'm not ready to date yet" is acceptable is if, at some future point, she would be willing to consider dating him. (Note, that she's not obligated to; only willing to consider that possibility and simply isn't ready to date yet.) If she's going to friendzone, then she needs to be clear on that point.

But "I'm not ready to date yet" leaves the guy with the impression that he's free to try again next week. Or in two weeks.

If there's no way that she'd consider him, she needs to find a polite way of saying that.

Let a guy down easy, get crap for it. Let a guy down with the truth, get crap for it.

No means no, regardless of how it's said. Let's just say that each no statement has a ... after it.
I'm not ready to date yet...or you ever.

Now, if full honesty is desired then go ask the hard questions - will you ever be ready to date ME? Oh, no? Are you at all attracted to me? No?

I tend to think that if people receive semi-generic responses, they should hear it as a no, not a please ask later. Because women will always let you know when they want you. I've never had a guy miss my signals, and that counts the time from across a crowded room.

...and this is why men and women think they've communicated when they haven't.

If a company said, "We're not ready to hire you yet." Would hear "no"? You shouldn't: my current employer (of 8+ years) said exactly that, because that was the case. They hired me a few months later.

If a guy said to another guy, "I'm not ready to ride [mtb] yet." Would you hear "no"? You shouldn't: I've said that myself when I wasn't confident my broken ankle had healed.

No means no, but "I'm not ready yet" doesn't mean no. To a guy, at least.

It certainly is not "letting a guy down easy". If it is easy, he didn't get it. The guy is listening through a filter that wants you to be saying yes. Otherwise, he wouldn't have asked. Letting a guy down easy is something along the lines of "I'm not interested", "You're like a brother to me", "Or, I'm sorry, no". Letting him down hard is a rip off a semi-generic response: "I'm washing my hair that night." or "I have a funeral to go to."

This is a kobayashi maru for women. No one wants to say to someone else, straight out, "I don't find you attractive enough." No one should be forced to in polite society. And the blow back is often ugly if you do.

When a woman says, "I'm not ready to date yet" or "I don't want to spoil our friendship," I believe most men know what this means but they refuse to accept it. They think they can wear her down through guilt or pressure or wait until she's exhausted her preferred options, which is a pathetic thing to do. It's like a game where they get to keep trying because she hasn't made herself say the stinging words that most people are loathe to say, and therefore the guy is "winning" the argument.

In any case, this guy wasn't confused, was he? He's just smarting from the rejection, and Amy gives great advice for guys on how to avoid that next time.

Women who don't believe in asking a guy out have to suffer through "passive rejection," meaning we have to slowly figure out that he has passed up enough opportunities to ask us out that it means we're not high on his list. That hurts too, and so would seeing photos of him with another woman afterward. Unfriend in this case? Tough decision. With all the FB filtering available, unfriending has become a hostile act.

I'm not going to get on the LW's case because I've been where he is. However, it is still true that the best way to get over it is to get yourself involved in someone/something else. Maybe start out by doing something purely for yourself. Save up some money and take the vacation you always wanted. Or buy a motorcycle. Or get a guitar and join a band. Or play softball. Something to get you out and about, that isn't speficially about dating. "Living well is the best revenge..." I wish I had understood the true meaning of that sooner.

If you want to unfriend the girl on FB, go right ahead if it helps you get past it. As others have said, everyone has hundreds of FB friends these days and they will usually never notice someone unfriending them. When you come across her in public, you must be civil to her, because that's a basic rule of Western civilization. However, there is no rule that says you have to be pals.

"lobster, it would never occur to me that 'Sorry, I'm not interested' and 'Sorry, I'm not ready to date' mean exactly the same thing, because, well, they don't. "

I know this isn't what you were talking about, but: to the person doing the asking, yeah, they do really mean the same thing. At least that's the way you have to take it. You can't let someone else go squatting in your mind-space by giving you a vague answer (whether that's what they intended to do or not), so whenever you extend an invitation, any answer other than "yes" must be interpreted as "no".

I've written here before that at one stage of my dating career I was the King of Being Stood Up. I eventually made a rule that if I were stood up on the first or second date, that was it. No excuses, no "I had a flat tire", no "my mom came by and I couldn't leave". 95% of the time I never heard from the prospective date again, and that suited me just fine. If it wasn't important enough to her to make an effort to show up or otherwise contact me, then hey, you don't have to hit me over the head twice. (There was one lady who called me several days later wanting to know why I hadn't called her, even though she made no good attempt to explain why she had stood me up, and she got quite irate when I declined to ask her out again. "That's a bullet dodged", I thought to myself.) Life is too short to waste any worrying about people who don't bother to show up for it.

"Women are like buses. If you miss one, just wait and there will be another one along in a few minutes."

I wish I had known this when I was younger. I was taught that my opportunities would be so few and far between that I had to accept any woman who would have me. From what I've observed, I am not the only boy who has been taught this.

I've learned on the Internets that lots of women stand guys up without explanation. I had no idea. I can't imagine doing that to someone.

> No one wants to say to someone else, straight out, "I don't find you attractive enough." No one should be forced to in polite society

> Let a guy down easy, get crap for it. Let a guy down with the truth, get crap for it.

I think a simple rule of thumb to live by is to generally treat people with basic kindness and decency and respect, but be firm and assertive when you need to be if someone is persistent ... I think if you generally operate from those principles, then you're probably going to get it right in most situations. (Do not say things like "Ugh. What a winner we have here" ... just treat people like human beings, treat yourself as not a doormat, and you'll be fine.)

"I've learned on the Internets that lots of women stand guys up without explanation. I had no idea. I can't imagine doing that to someone."

I have no good explanation for it either. The only possibilities I can come up with are (1) they are too timid (or maybe just surprised) to say no to the invite, or (2) they want a back-up plan. If/when the preferred date comes through, they just blow off the other one.

Maybe the girl wasn't ready at the time. Or thought she wasn't, which amounts to the same thing. Meeting LW didn't change that but meeting some other guy did and her readiness status changed. It happens.

> Or thought she wasn't, which amounts to the same thing.

Hm, if she really merely 'thought she wasn't', it means she lacks any kind of reflective insight into her own thought processes, and lacks the ability to detect even glaring inconsistencies between her claimed intentions and her actions. In that case, I think LW should be thankful it didn't go anywhere.

"Not ready to date yet," is code for "Sorry, not into you."

A woman who is into you will be "ready to date" five minutes after her ex closes the door.

In a way, I relate to the LW; once upon a time I had the same mentality and would've reacted the same way. Being a little older and sure of myself, I see the LW as reacting way out of proportion to the situation. If a girl is in any way interested (and available), she'll say yes. Period. As long as she's single, the timing won't matter. And she won't stand the guy up. She'll make it happen, and if an emergency does keep her away from their date, she'll make it up to him. Because she's into him; anything less means she's just not. That's how it works.

Yet, while I can see she was just trying to being polite and not hurt his feelings, she made the mistake of not being clearer about her lack of interest in HIM. She should've said she just saw him as a friend and wasn't interested in him in that way. Sure, it might hurt his feelings in the short term, but for a lot of guys (probably most guys), anything less leaves the door open just enough to latch his hopes onto. So in his mind, "I'm not ready to date right now" did indeed spin in his brain to, "…but check back again later". So to him, he has a right to be resentful…but if he understood her response as it was really meant, that she wasn't interested in HIM and was trying to be nice about it, he'd realize he really shouldn't be.

As for de-friending her and avoiding her at social functions…um, no. IF she had strung him along and broken his heart, then yes, he'd be right to do those things. But all she did was say "no" to a date with him. It happens. It wasn't some tragic love story that left him a broken man. What he really needs to learn is everything I wrote above and apply it to his life. He shouldn't avoid her, he shouldn't be an ass to her; he should genuinely be nice to her and, you know, be a FRIEND…because that's all she wants from him. It's not her fault that he pined for her for so long before asking her out…and by the way, the LW does deserve kudos for doing that. He just needs to man up and accept she just wasn't into him and accept it with grace. Who knows, she may decide to set him up with one of her friends who he might like better (and not necessarily the ugly one with the "great personality"). You never know where your opportunities will come from.

I totally agree with Amy's advice, but with regard to the LW's question about what to do on facebook -- sure, unfriend her. Why expose yourself to something that irritates or upsets you? Just do it quietly and don't get dramatic about it, and likely no one will even notice you did it, much less think you're "bitter" or "petty." (Not to mention that probably everyone, including her, has already forgotten you asked her out.)

I mean, you don't want to be friends with her in real life anyway, right? It may help you to move on to unfriend her. And move on you certainly should, yesterday.

And if it still bugs you that once in a while you catch a glimpse of her in someone else's photos, spend less time on facebook, and more time socializing in real life, where you might meet someone who actually does want to date you. Actually, that's good advice anyway.