It always cracks me up when Atheists celebrate Christmas.

A person can be spiritual without being religious. Unfortunately, many religious types don't seem to understand this. "You have to go to church or fry in hell" they tell you.

How much is atheism about rejecting religion and all of the church doctrine that goes with it? I'm anti-religion but consider myself deeply spiritual. I've explained more than once to people that church always represents very narrow and limiting views. I don't want to be told what to do or not do: don't eat meat on Fridays, don't wear jewelry or certain 'lifestyles' are for sinners. Churches tend to be exclusive. I've been to enough of them to know. And don't get me started on the Bible. I care not what it says.

Once most reasonable people realize I'm a kind caring and generous person, they relax a little and quit trying to save me.

If this boyfriend is long term material, the going to church thing isn't gonna go away. Going once becomes precedent setting. Like Amy says, talk to boyfriend about how you feel. There may be a solution to this yet.

Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull gets it: 'He is not the type you wind up on Sunday....'

Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings here, but this is one tiny skirmish in the begining of the "in-law" war.

If you do stay with this guy, and end up married, there will be the "getting married in the church" fight. Then there will be the "Baptizing the grandchildren and raising them christian" fight. You will be at odds with them forever, and depending on what these people are like, whether they are passive-aggressive or plain out and out mean, they may make your life faintly uncomfortable or pure misery.

Your boyfriend should stand up for you now and tell his parents that you don't feel comfortable going to church, period, end of discussion. If he won't stand up for you, then you will have no back-up in the future, and it's a sucktastic feeling being alone in the crosshairs of bad inlaws. (yes, I speak from experience)

Sit your boyfriend down and tell him that he needs to understand that your feelings in this matter are what he should be considering now. If he wants to be your partner, he needs to adjust his priorities accordingly. It is his job to respectfully tell his parents that you won't be attending church, and that is that.

Hey BF's Mom and Dad, before we go to mass care to weigh in on why this new pope everyone loves still protects child rapists from criminal prosecution, refuses to retract the churches statement that condemns spread AIDS, oh and hey how bout that Irish nun child slavery ring?

OK so I suck at giving HELPFUL* advice, but I'm a master at pushing buttons to make other people feel exactly what you want them to feel.

*Advice which while solving the problem does not cause half a dozen others

I'm just making a shot i the dark on the Catholic thing, but its not that hard to tailor such a response for any denomination.

I agree with Kat though, depending on how devout his parents are and how much of a wuss he is every major event that can be tied a the church they will attempt to tie to a church.

Sorry LW, MOA.
you need to find a nice atheist boy, and work on your issues with getting over religion.

Did he say he is no longer religious, or did you say that about him?

The important thing here is EVEN IF he isn't religious, he IS obviously seeing "tradition" (in best Tevye voice)

This is a family tradition, and it would be no different if he was Hindi, Jewish, or Wiccan... regardless if he's "lapsed" or not.

Eventually you "aversion" will turn to resentment, and why should either of you change to something uncomfortable?

When gramma dies are you not going to the wake, as he says goodbye to a person who helped raise him or something? Gonna not have a Christmas tree, cuz you don't agree with Christmas, nor the pagans?

Even non-religious people carry the tradition they were born with... and potentially many others.

Do you care enough, are you curious enough to find out why he does? Do you want to explain to him the damage done to you?

"It always cracks me up when Atheists celebrate Christmas."

Why? It's a pagan holiday, turned semi-Christian, turned commercial.

It's become an American export --- like Coca Cola. Many non-Christians in other parts of the world have formed their own traditions of Christmas.

I hate to say this without knowing the couple in question, but they should end it now. Right now it's Christmas, but like someone else said here comes the wedding and then children. This is guy is more religious than he appears, trust me. Once there are a couple of little pairs of feet running around he will most likely "rediscover" his faith. I have friends who I never saw darken the door of church marry someone from a different faith tradition all of the sudden going to the mat for faith they haven't even practiced in ten years. This is even true of the various Christian denominations. LW, find another BF bc this road only gets bumpier from here. If you were able to be blaise about issue it might work, but since your feelings are so intense save yourself the trouble. Core values are important and these guys are an ocean away from each other on this topic.

Agree with everyone here. The whole "religion" thing can be a deal-breaker, if there is no compromise on it. Also, this, from lujy: "I agree with Kat though, depending on how devout his parents are and how much of a wuss he is every major event that can be tied to a church they will attempt to tie to a church."

If he's not going to stand up for you now, he won't in the future. I'm sorry.

Maybe he's standing up for himself.

If he were standing up for himself he would say "I want this"

not "Just humor my parents"

I'm a sincere, but not very devout Christian. If I go to church, it's twice a year, Christmas and Easter. But there was a time when the trappings of faith were more important to me, and I invited a dear friend to come with me. Dude was a long-term agnostic.

(He would hold that while I cannot prove that there is a God, he cannot prove that there is not one, so he can't take the position "There is no God.")

He made it through the service without being bruised. He stood when we stood, sat when we sat, and listened to the homily with an open mind. He did not take communion.

And he was not burned from the presence of faith.

LW sounds young and entitled. She is a guest in their home during an important holiday, it will mean a lot to her boyfriend's family for her to go. And unless she was tortured by the Inquisition, I have a hard time believing that her "aversion" is so overwhelming that she can't sit through an hour or so in a church, be polite, make small talk, laugh at the little kids' skits, etc. These are the kinds of adult compromises one makes with their Significant Others and families, IMO she should suck it up and go.

Now, if they try to dunk her and save her soul against her will, then run like the wind.

Personally, I think it'd be a good thing for both of them to give a little. She agrees to go to church on Christmas, on the years they celebrate with that side of the family, because it's important to him - while explaining WHY she hates church so that her boyfriend understands why she's refusing the rest of the year. Childhood issues need to be resolved so that she is capable of sitting quietly and daydreaming through an hour long service.

LW sounds young and entitled. She is a guest in their home during an important holiday, it will mean a lot to her boyfriend's family for her to go.

I agree. If she is staying in their home, she should accompany them to church. I was made fun of as a kid for not being Xtian, too, and I can make it through church on Easter Sunday.

LW, the key to surviving church when you hate it is daydreaming. People watch. Make up scandalous stories in your head about the WASPs sitting around you. It's super fun.

I know this because my fiance's parents are Super-Catholics from a part of the world where Catholicism is garnished with extra crazy. I often visit during Mother's Day, Easter, etc, so to Mass I go. It helps that my boyfriend is also an atheist, so we can exchange covert eye rolls when the priest, for example, talks about how premarital cohabitation is as bad as murder.

I DID draw the line, though, on attending religious retreats with them. The last one I attended involved a nice little seminar on when it's OK to beat your wife and how you both need to pray afterwards. My boyfriend walked out with me several minutes in and afterward took his parents aside and told them we would NOT be attending workshops or retreats in the future. So, LW, if I can sit through seven minutes of Wife Beating 101, you can go to church on Xmas. Go drunk if you have to. godspeed.

Sofar,
Which Catholic church did you go to where they said it was okay to beat your wife and then pray about it? I am life long Catholic, been to retreats and never heard anything that sounds close to this. If it is really happening the local Bishop should be informed that this is being taught within his diocese. I am happy to make that call if you don't want to get involved.

It was a retreat (of about 50 people) held in someone's home. They are Indian, and the married couple running the retreat was from India. The husband ran the workshop and, being married, was obviously not a priest. A bunch of families donate money to fly this couple to America twice a year.

The retreat in question involved a session on "solving conflicts in marriage." They shared a couple scenarios in which a wife was disobedient, and whether hitting was justified (it was, apparently, in some cases, if prayer took place afterward).

Honestly, the whole thing was weird to me. Lots of speaking in tongues, lots of working miracles on sick people. Most of my own family is Catholic, and I'd never seen any of this before. At least the food was good?

Now that I think about it, I wonder if this is a strain of regional Catholicism or if this couple were just some out-lying, cultist loons. In any case, I doubt they have any official ties to the Catholic Church with a capital C.

For Easter, Mother's Day, etc., we go to a main-stream Catholic church.

I know you've mentioned they are Indian. Are they Konkani sofar?

I personally can enjoy Catholic mass because my grandfather forbade it.

Yep! Goan!

My BF's parents have historically been cool with a lot of things that seem to freak other Indian Parents and Catholic Parents out. Plus, Goans have a reputation for being the hippies of India. So I thought this retreat was going to involve holding hands, singing "Kumbaya," and eating samosas. At least there were samosas.

And here's another tip for the LW: If the service is in the morning, count the number of people who are sleeping.

Depends on the church.

If it's Catholic, gaze in wonder at the corpse nailed to the wall.

If it's Lutheran, have the mayonnaise casserole. Have some!

If it's born-again, marvel at the pure steaming vitriol disguised as love and/or the preacher's vertical haircut.

If it's Unitarian, be nice. That skit was written by somebody's mother.

Or just get yourself a sweetie who defends you to his mommy. Probably simpler.

If it's Lutheran, have the mayonnaise casserole. Have some!

Among some Lutherans, it's a sacrament. And it's been said that a Lutheran coffee maker is second only to the baptismal font it items to be saved if the church catches fire.

I'm agnostic, the rest of my family is devout Christian. My parents believe that I'm not Christian because we haven't prayed away childhood trauma (eye roll) They live 3 hours away and when I visit, I used to drive back home before church to avoid it.

These days I stay, take a notebook and daydream/journal through the services and enjoy a delicious lunch at my parents' place before heading home.

I no longer get angry at services and I know the service will eventually end, plus there's nieces and nephews and food after, so I try not to giggle through the songs and plan my week. It's an hour, it makes them happy, and it's not worth fighting over anymore.

The letter writer talks about the boyfriend wanting her to go to church. It's quite possible the parents have met athirst a before and may even like some and would completely understand.

Reading Gog's comment was the second comment on this site today that made me spit water on my keyboard.

plus there's nieces and nephews and food after, so I try not to giggle through the songs and plan my week. It's an hour, it makes them happy, and it's not worth fighting over anymore.

Plus, the LW mentioned it's holiday services. Half the people there don't go to church regularly. The music is great, there's usually an adorable skit involving children, and controversial topics are usually avoided in the sermon. It's the ideal time to go to church if you must.

Suppose instead that the atheist is the host, and tells the guests this: "I've been told that you strongly believe in attending church on this day, but as you are here, I want you to forgo these beliefs to show me respect."

How rude!

Theres an idea gcmortal

"Sure honey, but when they visit us they agree to not attend church"

Is it really that hard to sit through a church service you don't believe in to help maintain and smooth over social relations with the closest relatives of the most important person in your life? Is there really a need to agitate and create conflict instead of just trying to get along with them?

Honestly, this sounds to me like someone who has no real problems in life, or something. Just go and make light of it, try to enjoy it instead of being Ms Pointlessly Dour. Life is short. Unless the deep distaste for religion stems from some serious violation e.g. you were abused by the pastor or something, then this seems like a real non-issue to me. You should be focusing on building positive relations with your potential future in-laws.

The REAL Lutheran sacrament involves funeral potatoes as well as any type of lime jello dessert/"salad". Google "funeral potatoes" and you'll find a wealth of obscenely delicious and rich potato casseroles that are pure, unadulterated, artery-clogging num numminess, that will probably transport you to Heaven sooner than later.

But, there's also a hot debate as to whether the Lutherans or Mormons were the first to celebrate this sacrament. As is the case with most religious topics.....

I agree with bkmale, me, sofar, and others above. Unless they're going to nail you to a cross or pester you with leaflets (hard to say which is worse) stop whining and go. No one's asking you to convert for fuck's sake.

I'm an atheist and my girlfriend goes to church every Sunday (being Sunday, she usually finds me still in bed when she gets back). She's recently returned to religion and so is getting dunked in a couple of weeks. She asked me diffidently if I wanted to attend, only if I really wanted to... it only took me a microsecond to say yes, *of course* I'll be there. Because it's important to her.

Would you refuse to go to a funeral because it was in a church? Believe me, that is going to come up.

Kids education, etc - meh. That can be dealt with unless the family are seriously fundamentalist. Judeo-Christian values aren't bad ones to grow up with even if they ultimately choose to reject the notion of God. If they become your in-laws and want to instil some religious instruction, let them knock themselves out. You'll get plenty of time to present your own viewpoint.

Plus LW, you might want to rethink your aversion when it comes to Catholic weddings. The priest always gets invited to the reception, and they tend to be hard drinkers and smokers (I guess because you have to take life's pleasures as you're allowed to) and very much up for some robust theological debate over a few Scotches and a cigar later in the evening. There's no reason this church thing can't be fun.

I wonder if when she is dining with people who pray before they eat, if LW, stops the host, steps away from the table, or makes an emergency visit to the rest room?

Going to church with these people is about tradition, as Swiss Army Dad says.

Being a little bored at family events, which are not your cup of tea, is a small price to pay for a relationship with a man from a decent intact traditional family.

Either learn to accomodate other people, or get out now, and go find someone as uncomfortable with religion as you are.

My father, my husband and myself are all atheists. All of us have been willing to attend church when it would be boorish not to.

And boorish is what you are asking Amy's permission to be here.

Many an atheist West Point Plebe has happily sat through a church service to secure access to a seat for an hour, and the koolaid and cookies served after... :-)

This is a tiny issue in the grand scheme of human relationships.

If you are truly that self centered, and uncompromising,you will probably be much happier alone.

Is it really that hard to sit through a church service you don't believe in to help maintain and smooth over social relations with the closest relatives of the most important person in your life?

Even notice this is only asked (DEMANDED) of non christians?

What if she werent an atheist? What if she were a wiccian and the LW as the future mother in law writing in to say she didnt feel comfortable being asked to attend a pagan ritual?

How many of you on team Jesus would tell her to suck it up and dance nude under the moonlight to foster family harmony?

@"Even notice this is only asked (DEMANDED) of non christians?"

It's often asked of everyone to sit through events they don't want to, but I find the boring bits no different to e.g. sitting through a boring meeting (without rudely leaving) or sitting through a boring speech (because it's your child or gf's graduation, or something). There are benefits to retaining good social relations (this also seems clearer to me as I get older). I'm thinking the LW, what if e.g. one day her child may be sick or they may need money for education or hospital, and may have to ask the in-laws for help ... they're probably going to remember all those times she rudely avoided them each Christmas for being Christian. And for what? Because she feels "uncomfortable" sitting through a service or two? If such a small thing makes her 'uncomfortable' she's going to have a difficult time coping with real challenges in life later on.

FTR I'm not 'on team Jesus', I'm a secular agnostic Jew. I grew up up in a heavily Christian town, I've had Christian friends and ex-girlfriends, and I'm married to a Christian, so believe me I've sat through many a church service in my life that wasn't my cup of tea either ... but I just don't see why it's a big deal. I don't feel like sitting there means I need to feel pressured to be converted or something (as I have a mind of my own and am comfortable with my beliefs and opinions). So I just try make the most of it as a social event, and I usually meet good and/or interesting people in the process. As Ltw says, I know it means something to my loved ones and their loved ones. Should I have refused to attend my own daughter's baptism? I find it easy to get along with people of different religious beliefs.

"Even notice this is only asked (DEMANDED) of non christians?" lujlp

Nope.

you could try noticing who protests the most about it, though...

I've sat through ritual and services of any number of other religions, some in languages I didn't know, and never have any of them threatened my beliefs.

I even argue with my own Church over what they purport to be doctrine...

How many of you on team Jesus would tell her to suck it up and dance nude under the moonlight to foster family harmony?

Nice strawman you have there luj. Until she's asked anything of the sort, yes, I expect her to suck it up and be polite.

How many of you on team Jesus would tell her to suck it up and dance nude under the moonlight to foster family harmony?

Wiccan "rituals" are a lot more boring than you seem to wish. :)

But you're right, luj, that there's probably a line, and I think you're getting at it with the "participation" angle. I don't think I should have to participate in any political rallies my boyfriend's parents attend. Nor should my boyfriend have to accompany my dad on his 10-mile 5am bike rides.

I admit, I don't know exactly where it's fair to draw the line. But I don't think sitting on a bench and ignoring a sermon is too much to ask of me the few times of year I am a guest in my boyfriend's parents home (and, for the record, when they visit us and stay in OUR home, I do not go to church with them).

Church requires no participation. You just sit there (or if it's a Catholic mass, you stand sometimes). I do not take communion. I do not sing. I do not join in the prayers.

And, no, when you're in a serious relationship, it's not just atheists who are asked to compromise. When my boyfriend stays at my family's house, he gets up at 7am to play breakfast bingo in a smoky casino because that's what my family does on Saturdays.

Ok, Luj, I normally like you but hang on there.

I'm a Wiccan. First of all, it's Alexandrians and (some) Dianics who dance naked, I'm Traditional Roma and my husband is Gardenian. The dancing naked thing is only ever mentioned in the Charge of The Goddess as a sign that you are free from slavery. Most sects accept that as symbolic nakedness, not literal. Furthermore, nobody is asking anybody to violate their bodily autonomy (such as being forced to get naked), they are asking her to stand and sit in a building with them. C's aunt is a tongues speaking, snake handling fundamentalist but she still going to stand there with a proud smile as C and I walk the circle and bind the cords. Why? Because she loves her nephew and wants us to be happy, not because somebody is FORCING HER.

However, going to somebody's religious service as an atheist who's seriously upset by religion isn't quite the same as "grinning and bearing it" at the opera.

It most certainly is especially because the bf is also going to the church service not out of his own free will, but for the sake of his parents. Things like I developed a deep distaste for religion are crappy statements which have no basis or meaning. You know it is dogmatic, but you also know it is not harmful. What the hell do you have to lose by going to it? It is not liek in the time that you are free not attending the church service, you are going to save the world or make a million dollars for yourself. He certainly did not ask her to come to a strip club out of respect for him or some underground fight club or some swinger party. It is just a harmless church service. Get over the whiny excuses and behave like an adult(not like an eggshell the way amy puts it). I really wonder why amy's advice regarding dating is so many times the exact opposite of what she claims is right on her blog.

Isn't respect kind of a two way street? If it's disrespectful to not go to church with his parents isn't it also disrespectful to ignore HER spiritual beliefs. Everybody's saying, well just push aside your beliefs for an hour and grin and bear it. Don't be such a baby. But then by the same token why would his parents get all bent out of shape if she just stays home while they go. If she's being childish and immature then so are they if they have a hissy over it.

But then by the same token why would his parents get all bent out of shape if she just stays home while they go.

This gets at the etiquette of staying at someone's home -- especially the home of a family you hope one day to become part of. In short, you have to do things that you think are lame/boring and things you'd rather not do -- even more so on significant holidays. Religious and otherwise. Within reason. of course. And sitting still for an hour and daydreaming while wearing business-casual is totally within reason. Even if you eschew etiquette, consider the fact that sitting home on the couch while the entire family is at Xmas Eve service makes you look childish. Any adult who is secure enough as an atheist can handle a holiday service without trauma.

Now, if the parents start pushing her to attend long seminars, eat meat as a vegetarian, convert (things that affect her life outside of that hour in church every few months), that's the point where she should refuse to visit -- or stay in a hotel when she does.

For many people, church is community. This may be less about religion and more about respecting their son's relationship by wanting to introduce his girlfriend to their community. A way of saying to their community, "we introduce you to the woman our son has chosen."

Likewise, this is her opportunity to be introduced to his parents' community - their network and safety net. And to learn more about her boyfriend by seeing his parents in their element. This is important stuff to see for a long term relationship.

Go, go, go to the service. The last time I was in a Baptist service in Florida - one of the "Six Flags Over Jesus" variety, huge building, no tacky expense spared - the people-watching was astonishingly fun.

And the front row's job was apparently to try to get the pastor to stutter. I haven't seen as many short, tight red dresses and stiletto heels in any otner venue, and I wouldn't swear that the dress code included underwear...