Not even sure what the point of this one is.

You're right. He's not.

/reply

Thanks, Donald. And actually, she's a woman. And wrote something along the lines of "leave the advice to the professionals" at the end of her snotty e-mail, suggesting she's a therapist.

Why would anyone want to keep the ring? I see this issue mentioned all the time...it seems strange to want to keep it, and have a constant reminder of a failed relationship. Is it just about having an expensive ring? Or do women keep them to sell them? When it's an heirloom, I don't think there is any doubt that it should be returned.

Was I supposed to get an engagement boat? I need to talk to Old RPM Momma about that one.

One of my buddies in college was in a fraternity. He said that when looking for a date to a fraternity dance, one had to beware of girls who, rather than wanting the guy's company, would accept the invitation only to get the party favors or centerpieces from the event, as kind of a trophy or something. Those girls, he said, "were only in it for the hardware." A dance is a fairly minor thing, but keeping an heirloom engagement ring sounds like being in it for the hardware writ large.

When my spouse-to-be asked me if I wanted an engagement ring, my immediate response was, "Are you kidding? Do you know how many gaming supplements we could buy with that money???" :D

Anyone here see the 'Sex and the City' movie? Towards the end, when Big gets down on one knee and asks Carrie to marry him, he says "This is why there's a ring. You need to close the deal." and puts a shoe on her foot, 'cause he didn't have a ring handy. Okay, it was only a $425 Manolo Blahnik, but you get the idea. When the deal gets broken, you give the ring back, especially if it's an heirloom that belongs to his family. If the deal gets broken after the ceremony, you keep the ring, heirloom or no, because you already put your time in, and it became yours.

So following -- know betters-- advice.

What if she did something that was a deal breaker. Found out she never got a divorce from her last husband, cheated on him, has a warrant out for her arrest from Interpol. Does she still keep the ring?

There are conditions to be met and one of them is actually getting married. He changed his mind for some reason.

It doesn't matter why it ended. Maybe he was shagging one of those goats in the shed behind his house. They didn't get married, the ring goes back.

Know better's advice certainly shows her true colors. Not knocking her, lot's of women are bitchy and selfish that way, and as long as we as guys know what we are getting into upfront, then cool. We can make decisions based on that information. Seriously, I know some gals like this, and some I like a lot. Would never buy them jewelry though, at least not a ring.

On the other hand, her line to Amy about therapists shows me something even more devious. 'Knows Better' has let too many Beyonce videos go to her head. She wants us to think she's a delicate little flower instead of what she actually is. And advice from Amy might expose her. So she attacks Amy. Bad idea.

She should certtainly keep the ring.
After all, it was a payment for her services.

oh wait, it's not supposed to be something like that, something so base... akin to the oldest profession. It's supposed to be something beautiful and trancendant.

So then why are we haggling over price? Because if you keep the ring, then that is what it was. The Price.

"Leave the advice to the professionals" also reveals an impressive level of elitism. Only people with PhDs can have common sense, wisdom and compassion, I guess. The rest of us just have to bow before the educated.

Really, though, does the LW really think that a "professional" would advise the dumpee to keep the ring?

I've seen this too many times and each time I've wondered WHY they would want to keep the ring...

It's a symbol of a failed relationship so either you pull it out of the jewelry box and use it to maintain your bitterness or you sell it, which is just a low-life thing to do, especially if it's a family heirloom.

I've never seen the sense in a high priced gewgaw anyway and I certainly wouldn't keep it if the marriage didn't happen--that would be hypocritical, vindictive, and petty.

But then I never asked for alimony either since I figured as a fully-functional adult I could make my own way in the world.

If men and women are equals, how come the guy has to give the girl an engagement ring but nobody expects her to buy him engagement golf clubs or an engagement boat?

I am pretty much with you on that.

In my second novel I have the couple giving each other rings with Suki's position being if she is going to wear one showing that she is "taken" then John is going to wear a ring also and he agrees. Sort of a "we either both say obey or neither of us does" in wedding vows idea.

De Beers would never let engagement rings go out of style.

I think if it's a bought engagement ring, whether it gets returned or not is dependent upon circumstances, etc. If it's an heirloom, there's a right thing to do and a wrong thing to do, and keeping it or hocking it is the wrong thing to do. I actually think it's in the same realm as theft. Just my two cents.

I guess I view this whole thing from a contractual standpoint.

If there is a proposal and a ring is given, that's, as would it would be called historically, "promise to marry." While an engagement holds no legal weight, and isn't binding, it is an agreement to do A Thing.

If this were a business deal (e.g: You paint my whole house, I pay you $5,000) there is an agreement. If you only paint the front of my house you are basically rescinding on the deal. I don't owe you the $5,000, however a judge may make me pay a fair market price for the hours of your service, even though it's incomplete.

When the guy gives a ring (regardless of how anyone feels about this tradition) he is saying "I promise to do this thing". If he pulls out of the deal he doesn't get back the ring; the painter wouldn't get back the pain on the front of the house.

Some states agree with that thinking (unconditional gift states). Others do not (conditional gift states).

If she breaks it off she is pulling out. He gets the ring.

It would all be easier if the tradition was changed. When D and I were discussing getting engaged I asked him if I could give him a ring, or at least contribute to the cost of mine. He scoffed at both, as he is more traditional. It seemed unfair but I enjoy the beautiful piece of jewelry and what it means and it makes him happy that I wear it.

I'm not totally attached to my logic but that is how it kind of unfolded in my brain.

"The ring was his mother's. Well, this girl's the dumpee, so that ring is now hers. My advice? Sell it to finance a fabulous vacation with her girlfriends."

My, what a cold-hearted person that letter-writer is.

Seriously.

Well Gretchen using your anaolgy what if the painter you gave the deposit to refuse to paint your house because you insted on poking him with a cattle prod?

We dont know why the engement fell thru only that te girl says they guy broke it off, maybe she she flung an ashtry at his head, and he decided to call it quits.

Even if he is the one to offically call it off, unless we know the circmstance it may have been a breach of 'contract' on her part

I've never understood wanting to keep the ring either. When I was in high school I had a serious boyfriend that bought me (unsolicited) a pair of small diamond studs. When we broke up I attempted to give him back the earrings in addition to his class key and other tokens of 'ownership' that truly belonged to him. He wouldn't take them and I ended up disposing of them years later when I was sure he wasn't going to come back and ask for them.

When my husband and I got married, we'd been living together for many years. We paid for our wedding rings out of the joint account and I didn't get an engagement ring. Frankly it seemed silly and we didn't want to spend more on 'making things legal' than was required.

I agree with many of the men here. Any woman who would keep an heirloom engagement ring just to spite her ex is a prostitute who is trying to get her trick to pay after the fact. Good grief, if you hate him that much, can't you just slander him on Facebook or something?

-Julie

P.S. I've seen that we have multiple Julie's floating around so I am going to start adding my last initial to keep things clear.

"Well Gretchen using your anaolgy what if the painter you gave the deposit to refuse to paint your house because you insted on poking him with a cattle prod?"

Good point! It wouldn't make sense for the law to get involved in all our relationships (let's hope it stays that way) so taking it "case by case" won't work. That's why we have generalized gift laws and precedent to follow.

I agree with Anne. If the engagement ring was purchased for her then they should decide together or the law should take over the issue. If it was an Heirloom, though, it should stay with whomever it is an heirloom too. For instance, I want to use one of my grandmothers' rings as my engagement/wedding ring, but I want it restyled. If it isn't too costly, that expense would be the man who proposes expense. Just because he payed for a restyling of my heirloom ring doesn't mean he gets to keep it if I break up with him. It was mine before we met. Give the ring back, its only fair. Besides what good is it to you?

I had to laugh. I did get my guy engagement golf clubs.

Very nicely stated, Amy.

Keeping the ring that was an heirloom to his family, because he broke it off?

Should he have married her and had them both be unhappy?

Keeping the ring because she was denied unhappiness is just stupid.

Keeping the ring at all, is just plain dishonorable.

If the ring wasn't a family heirloom, this might not be so wrong. Depends on when he called it off too. One of my girlfriends was recently dumped by her fiance, and she had already paid for the wedding venue, the dress, and other expenses, so not only is she humiliated and heartbroken, but she's out quite a bit of money. Under those circumstances, I can see selling the ring if it had no sentimental value, but not a family heirloom.

My wife gave me a very nice engagement watch. It's a nice tradition, better to make it reciprocal than to abandon it all together.

"My advice? Sell it to finance a fabulous vacation with her girlfriends."

And since you like the idea of taking other peoples things, why not shoplift and rob banks too!? That'll finance some super-giggly fab vacations with the girls!

The ring symbolizes the engagement. With the engagement broken off, the ring is just a material possesion to her. Her keeping it says a lot about her character.

As it's been said, if you loan someone $5 and you never see them again, it's probably worth paying $5 to never see them again.

As it's been said, if you loan someone $5 and you never see them again, it's probably worth paying $5 to never see them again.

This reminds me of a joke I heard Willie Nelson tell,

Why are divorces so expensive?

Because they are worth it.

-Julie

"I guess I view this whole thing from a contractual standpoint."

Okay, we can go this route, but the rest of your analogy is backward.

The contract is: "If we get married, you can keep this."

Etiquette says give the ring back. In more states than not, so
does the law. In most of the states, who's at "fault" doesn't
matter (the courts don't want to end up trying to decide the
question of just what constitutes "fault").
Cite: http://marriage.about.com/od/rings/a/ringreturn.htm
for a list of some states where the issue has been decided.

The original LW needs to meet with the mother, offer an apology for not getting back to her, and produce the ring. Leave the ex out of it.

it just occured to me, how odd the thinking is in this tradition...

If they had exchanged engagement rings, maybe the points of view might be different for LW... and maybe it would be more likely that they would each give that back.

Or is that exchange idea crazy talk? ... My now ex wife got my family heirloom things, and I got, uh. Nada. Since there were so many things to buy, and do at the beginning, well it was just never a priority. Then I realized that the one thing she got for getting married that she didn't want was me.

Funny how that works. Now I know.

Marriage is one thing. Weddings are something else, and I think they are hyped so much in some women's minds that they forget the purpose, and the other person involved. Rings and the other trappings are certainly part of that.

Hey, FYI, Dear Margo answered the same letter. For the record Amy, I like your answer better!

http://www.wowowow.com/relationships/dear-margo-howard-admitting-affair-breaking-engagement-398068

My thought is even if she is legally justified in keeping it, it would still be a dick move.

"My advice? Sell it to finance a fabulous vacation with her girlfriends."

And since you like the idea of taking other peoples things, why not shoplift and rob banks too!? That'll finance some super-giggly fab vacations with the girls!

Posted by: Lobster at November 4, 2009 11:57 AM

Maybe LW belongs to the Hollywood Hills Burglar Bunch school of thinking...

http://www.tmz.com/2009/10/29/burglar-bunch-member-laughs-nick-prugo-courtney-ames-mug-shot-paris-hilton/

From a purely selfish standpoint, returning the ring allows you to look like the "good guy" in this situation: to your family, his family, mutual friends. Even if original LW was legitimately hurt and jilted, it's hard to play the injured party hard when you've hijacked family heirlooms. For the record I wouldn't give it back to the ex-fiance though; I'd deliver it directly to his mother (to whom it still belongs) , either in person or with a nice, handwritten note. There's a good chance that ex-fiance has probably made some smears against LW to justify the breakup; making this gracious gesture allows the LW to leave a final impression of classiness.

Margo is correct in the idea that this is society's way of thinking... Guy kils deal, loses ring, girl kils deal, gives ring back. But that is what I mean by exchange. The guy gives a ring, and the woman gives... nothing. This idea of engagement is kinda interesting.

One of my friends that married in Japan was scarcely ready for hwo that played. He asked, she said yes, and she figured they'd go round to the courthouse the next day, and get married. He was caught totally flatfootted. Apparently in Japan they don't get engaged for a year, and then get hitched.

It actually makes sense. Why would you ASK if you weren't ready? Why would she say yes, if she wasn't ready? What is with the test period?

They had a beautiful wedding later with all the family coming to Japan...

The intents just don't seem to be matching up with this "engagement" thing.

That is where the ring question starts in the first place. IMHO

> it seems strange to want to
> keep it, and have a constant
> reminder of a failed relationship

For a woman to want to be given some nice things isn't always a slamdunk indictment of her immortal soul, especially if she respects the effort a man makes to bring them to her... But the judgment of the commenters here seems to be that this woman doesn't (and I agree).

There are women who think about these things in those terms, rather than with respect to emotional connections. I dated one once, and we came to point where she was asking for jewelry (wink wink nudge nudge) for her birthday. (The sex was good, pretty face, fast smile, and her condo was majestic.) I mentioned this to friends at work one day— a man and woman who happened to work beside each other at desks, people who were friendly and knew what my life was like. As they heard me talk about it, they both suggested –without sharing more than a glance of eye contact in the moment– that I not invest heavily in a gift. They said no more than that, but I could hear their music as if it were from blaring trumpets: "Fella, this woman is moving things into a process that will not be rewarding to you." After another short month of playtime sex, it was over.

In retrospect, those coworkers saved my ass. There's a lot of be said for introducing whoever you're dating, for whatever purpose, to your friends as early as possible. There had been signs, moments too unbelievable to describe here, but I was blinded. By poon. Or teeth. Or something. She even had a great dog.

If I were the guy and the ring was truly an heirloom of that kind (my family has none), I would pursue legal recourse. Not to hurt her feelings, not to teach her a lesson, but just to get the goddamn ring back.

What the fun of owning something like that for her? What will she say about it to her friends? "And here's a beautifully-crafted piece that once meant a great deal to a woman over her entire lifetime, until she lovingly passed it on to her descendant, who meant nothing to me...."

Some people really seem to think that there's going to be an exit interview upon their deaths, where the hearts they've broken and the trinkets they've collected will be tallied, as if weighed admission to the next venue.

The worst kind Crid, is the 'seductress' as Debbie Ford calls them. They are after the gifts and/or the money but they don't realize it. I dated several like that in my formative years. Although that's usually a 20's thing when everyone is so stupid and horny things don't matter (unless you get pregnant or married or something that one should not be doing in the first place at that age). That gal who had you in poon wrap may or may not have been doing the gift thing on purpose. Water under the bridge really; whether she knew her motives or not, it would have turned out bad.

I find it rather amazing, in this day and age, with divorce rates so high, that any guy would give a woman a family heirloom ring. I mean, sure, everyone believes their marriage will last forever, but the odds aren't great, and once they're married, the ring is hers, even if the relationship ends.

Seems much smarter for a man to save the ring to give to his daughter, should he have one. That way it's more likely to stay in the family.

Why give a woman a ring for marriage anyway? They rarely wear them these days. I can't tell you how many married women my buddies and I have seen out on the old "girls night out" sans rings. You see the same women the next day hop out of the mercedes crossover and let their kids get out to go to school...they have the rings on then!

But, if you have to give a ring to someone, and the relationship sours, you get the ring back. If you don't, get an attorney. The guy always gets the ring back in court, as the ring is a "promise to enter into a contractual obligation" or something like that.

I know a married couple who have matching tattoos on the top of their feet. I kind of admire that. I'm thinking of remarrying, and it will definitely be my last, so a tattoo is appealing. That really says "committed" a lot more than a ring you can easily remove (though I want a ring too! lol).

Then again, Johnny Depp had to change "Winona Forever" to "Wino Forever", so it's probably a dumb move.

Then again, Johnny Depp had to change "Winona Forever" to "Wino Forever", so it's probably a dumb move.

The rule is never tattoo a name. I know some artists that won't do it no matter what. I have my husband's name tattooed on the back of my neck. He has a 'job-ender' with my initials. But it took many years before we risked even that.

-Julie

IIRC, Pam Anderson had her wedding ring tattooed on. I thought that was pretty creative.

Dumpee....dumper....

potty mouth poop stick

I dunno, I think that Margo Howard got it right, up to a certain point in her response: "The choice for you is whether to be a lady or to stick it to him and his mother."

I just wonder if she really understands the implications of her words, since I would have stopped right there.