I am really not so sure about your "theory" Amy. You don't take a lot of factors into consideration. Such as - rebellion. There are moderate Muslims all over the world who are pretty much just like moderate Christians and moderate Jews. Sure - their "word of god" says some violent things, but those are just ignored. Just like Christians and Jews do. Why don't we hear from moderate Mulsims? Beacuse they are moderate and you never hear from quiet people who just live their lives. I believe that "rebellion" and uprising against the radical Islamic movement is not developing in the same ways that it did in the West because of the West! Those "moderates" who might normally begin a movement against the radicals have another choice...they can get the hell out. Eventually there will be a "critical mass" achieved and the moderate people will rebel against the radical elements of Islam. That is what history has taught us. Look at the Catholic church and where it was and where it is now! People don't give up what they have very easily and they are also greedy by nature. The critical mass hasn't happened yet but it will.

Steyn is going to go apeshit over this one.

That man is a tool, just because a few countires share a language does not mean they share a culture.

Who refers to america as an englsih culture just beacuse we speak english?

And since the advent of Islam I cant think of a single scientific achivement or advance to come from the middle east

This week's incomprehenisble ironies:

1. Tomorrow morning I will be older than the President of the United States.

(Compensatory circumstances: I'm still better-looking, and a better guitar player than he is.) (Excuse me; ...than He is.)

2. After all these years, it turns France should have been even more prideful and self-regarding than she has been.

(Compensatory circumstances: None. This is inexplicable.)

Well, this comes to mind.

Paris has always been a global center for fashionable thinking, after all. Que sera, right?

After "(I believe the Mona Lisa's face will be painted over by Islamist nutwads in my lifetime.)" You'd lose most readers, they'd simply dismiss you. Mona Lisa, "nutwads" and painted over, I mean give me break.

Karl Marx wrote - "Religion is the opiate of the people" . While I think his economic theory was garbage, I think he had this one right. Seriously, if you can get people to buy into it, what better way of controlling them is there? You can make the most outrageous promises and threats and don't have to worry about the people finding out you're making the shit up. Once you have it in place for a while it's self sustaining - kids get it drilled into them by their parents and the rest of the adults around them. Jesus may have been a decent man but Mohammad and Joseph Smith (and a bunch of others) were in it for themselves.

They blew up buddas in 2001 and tried to do the same in 200
http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaNews/idINIndia-29479620070912

Do you really think people who go to the effort of using explosives would shy away from a paint brush?

Are you really that stupid?

See Amy...you may call my optimism "wishful hallucination" but I find your views to be rather pedantic. You think you will be forced into a hijab in your lifetime? I simply disagree. There is a radical Muslim sub-religion for sure. It has been given some power...why? Because the moderate Muslims leave the country. They may want to bring some of their culture with them but for the most part they leave ebcause they want a different life. Rather than "rise up against" the radicals, they leave. Eventually the radicals will spread and I would say most Muslims don't really want that and evetually the "critical mass"...when the radicals infiltrate the moderates...too much.

As for the Quran and what it says? I could give a CRAP!! The bible says the same bullshit and christians and jews ignore it (now). The New Testament says you have to convert everyone to christianity too...and many a holy war was waged over that. Now the church has been beaten back into submission by the people. The same will happen in Islam too.

Right now Muslims are this generations' "red bastards"...you know - our parents thought those commie bastards would destroy the world and kill us all. Look what happened there? Um...not much. Well, there was that one Cuban missle crisis.

You can think what you want Amy but history disagrees with you. As for moderate Muslims...I work with them. As a matter of fact some muslim dude just got back from lunch with the jewish kid next to me. They went for a beer and some pork.

It was a French engineer in Napoleon's army who discovered the Rosetta Stone in 1799, and it was a French scholar, Jean-Francois Champollion, who deciphered it in 1822. The native Egyptians of the time dwelled in complete goat-fucking ignorance of their own thousands of years of pre-Islamic history. To them, it was just an old rock with some strange scribbling on it. Everything that we in the modern world know about the glory of ancient Egypt is thanks to the generations of Western scholars & archaeologists who've been patiently digging & studying since 1799, and France led the way.

Now the President of France is gushing over how wonderful Arabic civilization is, in front of the whole world. Napoleon & Champollion are crying in their graves.

Because the moderate Muslims leave the country.

So were did all the moderate muslim that are no longer in France and England go Karin?

Karin,

Your point about communism was rather interesting. The US fought Communism internally because it was indeed a threat. I would argue curtailing civil rights during the McCarthy period was wrong but I digress. Those "red bastards" would have voted in a communist party . How do you think that would have turned out? Same thing applies to Islam. We need people to be informed and speak out agains it. It is a vile ideology. And if you think the Qur'an is the same as the Bible then you are simply ignorant. All praciticing Muslims, including the moderate ones, believe Muhammed is the perfect example of how to live your life. Go read a few biographies and then judge whether that is acceptable to you or not. I have spoken to some "moderate" Muslims. They all believed in Sharia law and would all support it. If you don't know what that implies I would suggest you do some research. Btw, it would be nice if you made the distinction between a practicing Muslim and a non-practicing one. Any Muslim eating pork and drinking beer is obviously non-practicing.

>French President Nicolas Sarkozy called Arabic the "language of the future, of science and of modernity,"

And once again, I have the letters QWERTY firmly imprinted on my forehead due to another stupidity said by a politician. Little did he know that the "Language of the Future" is dictated by those who are the leaders in commerce. It was true for the Greeks, the Romans, the Englishmen and now the Americans. As far as I know, the next "Language of the Future" will be a kingpin of English and Mandarin with some Japanese words dropped in for good measure.

The comment over science is laughable at best and pathetic at worse. Is there anyone here who can name me five non-religious scholars coming from the Islamist countries? How many patents have been registered from Muslim countries in relation to the rest of the world? Why Saudi kings need western technicians to run anything more complex that a car engine from the '80 in their rich and powerful kingdom?

Muslim have yet to learn that no amount of thuggish behavior or ritual gymnastic is able to turn a scrap of paper into a dollar bill. Anti-social behavior from those who fix their values in the land of Ethereal realms will end-up in the same place they started; in the reservation called "The Middle-East".

Rosy future indeed.

> Look what happened there? Um...not
> much. Well, there was that one Cuban
> missle crisis.

Stalin's purges & villainy killed twenty million, still the world record. And then two generations across Europe, much of Asia, and in far-flung pockets of influence lived in poverty, corruption and stupidity.

"Not much", you say, except for that part where the civilized world was nearly vaporized.

Charles,

The people of whom I speak are both practicing Muslims AND moderate. A "moderate" person will pick and choose what in their religous document what they wish to follow and what they don't. In this case, he drinks beer and eats pork but also goes to mosque on a daily basis. He has simply chosen which part of the religion he wishes to follow. The same goes for his jewish friend. He eats pork routinely, skips the sabbath but keeps yom kippur. I also have catholic friends who take communion and baptise their children but do not really do anything else that is "catholic". These catholics also ignore the little commandments about stoning people to death and tithing 10% of their income to the church.

I am not saying to not be aware of radical elements and that they don't need to be stopped. I am simply pointing out that there are more moderates that you think. Amy makes it sound like her world is on the brink of extinction and I simply disagree. Honestly - in the end it is what is economically viable that will win in the end. I believe capitalism is the most economically viable and will win out every time. If Islam threatens an economically viable system it will be tromped out. For now there is no threat which is why there is leeway to be had. Just wait until someones cash flow gets cut off or threatened...then you will see the tides start to turn again. It is my belief that money rules all things and rest is just a smokeshow.

As for the Quran and what it says? I could give a CRAP!! The bible says the same bullshit and christians and jews ignore it (now).

And how lovely. Muslims, in large numbers, act out the really sick shit throughout the Quran, and take it literally as the word of god. Also, anything that Mohammed did is supposed to be something they emulate -- like taking and raping slaves, murdering the infidel, and fucking pre-pubescent girls (he married his wife Aisha when she was six and had sex with her at 9). Any surprise that this goes on in Muslim countries (and under the radar in the West?

Capitalism isn't the answer to illiterate Muslim schmucks who can't get girls (probably due to their illiteracy and the economic situation that ensues) and believe they're off to fuck the virgins if they kill themselves for Allah.

Karin you still havent told us where all the moderate muslims that used to live in europe moved to

"Right now Muslims are this generations' red bastards'...you know - our parents thought those commie bastards would destroy the world and kill us all. Look what happened there? Um...not much."

Untold tens of millions killed worldwide by murderous totalitarian communists, and we still must be subjected to this sort of statement? Unbelieveable.

Large sections of the world *were* destroyed, and the enslaved people who did not die in gulags and purges suffered shorter, poorer, terror-filled lives because they were dominated by by psychotics no different from the Taliban's worst. America and key client states did not suffer that misery thanks to its well-armed readiness. It really was that simple, and that awful.

It is one of liberal America's greatest shames that it, to this day, fails to acknowledge how horribly wrong it was about communism's threat to humanity. They often still drone on about McCarthy, as his contemptible (but pretty brief, really) notoriety is more noteworthy than the enormity of the evil America and her allies beat back during those decades.

Crid said ""Not much", you say, except for that part where the civilized world was nearly vaporized."

Gotta agree with you this time. I read an article about the statistics of such close calls and we can't afford to repeat them.

Maybe Islam will mellow out in time, but I fear it would take several hundred years. We don't need a return to the dark ages. If the 'moderate' Muslims are leaving the radicals behind, then why is radical shit happening in the countries the 'moderates' have moved to?

Karin: These catholics also ignore the little commandments about stoning people to death and tithing 10% of their income to the church."

Where, exactly, are these listed in the commandments? I must have missed them.

I'm wondering if Europe will ever hit a point in their slow devolution into islamofascism to say, "hey wait, this IS kinda bullshit, yeah?" and perhaps start to fight back.

I have my doubts, but I have my hopes, too.

Karin -

You want to know the hell that the USSR inflicted in the name of "the common good"?

Look up Chabarovice. In fact, go to the library and get P. J. O'Rourke's book "All the Trouble in the World", and read about it there. Chapter 5. Read all of it.

Then come back here and tell me we didn't need to fight communism. We needed to fight it one fuckload of a lot harder.

Islam is worse than Communism in one way - Communists were possessed of their own ego that they just had to be right. Islamists are convinced that God has told them that they are right.

Everywhere that Islam is expanding, it is this "extreme fringe" you talk about. How many of them have to exist before they are no longer a fringe?

Farker -

As long as the Islamist movement taps into the latent anti-semitism in Europe and combines it with violence (that the enervated Euros despise) they will have their way with Europe.

And personally, I'm a lot more worried about what happens when a nuclear-armed France or England goes Islamic. Because then they CAN nuke us.

And now we're back to "demography is destiny".

wow, there is some serious xenophobia up in here! i do agree that the muslim is new "black man." Your comments definitely support that.
For those who have never met a Muslim - i'm guessing none of you have - they are regular people.
As far as arab scholars/inventors, surely you have heard of wiki. Arabs/Muslims have made huge contributions to math and science. As for patents, well, you would be hard pressed to find a "white American" inventor these days. All we are our making these days is bad debts and ponze schemes!
And remember, every dog has it day. Im thinking ours are winding down, but once England was the center of the world, as was Greece, Roma, (and gasp) the Arab world.
And to say Muslims are murderers is like saying Catholics are molesters, Jews are bloodsucking thieves, and Christians are hellbent on the Jews controlling Jerusalem so JC can be resurrected and destroy them all....hmmmmm

sorry, i didnt mean they invented wiki, just to look them up on wiki

Got any names or should we just search for 'muslim scholars'?

Well, France has been overrun so many times, they really don't know how to do anything else. Only this time, it isn't an army at the border, it is coming from inside, with the help of their own government.

Karin- Brian's right on this one. Look up Angola while you are at it.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 110,000,000 (110 million) people have been killed by communist regimes. That is 2/3 of all the people killed from 1900-1987 by all governments, quasi-governments and guerrillas.

As for the 2 people you mentioned:

In this case, he drinks beer and eats pork but also goes to mosque on a daily basis. He has simply chosen which part of the religion he wishes to follow. The same goes for his jewish friend. He eats pork routinely, skips the sabbath but keeps yom kippur.

Ask them if their rabbi or imam know they do these things. I would bet not (especially the imam). If not, then they are liars and hypocrites.

Amy said: France is a small country, and native French people have few children per family. Muslim immigrants have many. Do the math.

Do the math, indeed. The French can't be bothered to have nearly enough children to have a viable society in another generation.

you can wiki "arab scholars." Most listed are muslim. Or muslim scientists.

and as for the websites you listed..surely you jest! the CBC study they refer to does not support their claims. And those websites are propaganda crap! Meant to stir you up and propagate fear and hate and basically "threaten our western way of life"..

and i guess you have never taken an astronomy or algebra class..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=arab+scholars

Wanna see what I found franny?

here you go...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_scientists

new link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists#Other_scientists_and_inventors

first 4 on the list of astronomers
Khalid ibn Yazid (Calid)
Wasnt an astronomer, was into alchemy, but hey they both start with a's right?
Only he wanst an alchemist, he translated the work of a greek

Jafar al-Sadiq
Not an astromomer, but very smart and knew alot about sciences, and never discovered a thing, his claim to fame was tax reform.

Yaqūb ibn Tāriq
Stole the work of a hindu, as was thereafter considered the greatist astronomer of his time

Ibrahim al-Fazari
Translated the work of a hindu on the order of his caliph, needed the help of the theif listed above and his son

#5 Muhammad al-Fazari - son of Ibrahim al-Fazari - primarily a translator of other cultures books was redited with building the first astrolabe a device used in creating horoscopes!!!

Top five astronomers of the muslim faith, two werent astronomers, and three were - if you consider playgerists, copy boys, and astrologers to be astronomers

FYI franny there is a difference between arabs and muslims.

Muslims are memebers of a religion and arabs are members of a genetic subsection of humanity that was originally found in a small geographic area

The one guy on that list so far Khwarizmi, credited with creating algebra wasnt even arab, he was persian. There is also much dispute as to whether he was muslim or zoroastrian.

SO the one guy who accopmlished something wasnt arab, and may not have been muslim.

yowza, you just needed to keep reading, the link is broad...and genetic subsection of humanity?? lol..too funny...arabs are defined more broadly than that.

more from your link..(and just a few!)
Abu Abdallah Muhammad ibn Jabir ibn Sinan ar-Raqqi al-Harrani as-Sabi al-Batani --One of his best-known achievements in astronomy was the determination of the solar year as being 365 days, 5 hours, 46 minutes and 24 seconds.
In mathematics, Battānī produced a number of trigonometrical relationships..solved the equation sin x = a cos x discovering the formula

Omar Khayyam was famous during his times as a mathematician. He wrote the influential Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra (1070), which laid down the principles of algebra, part of the body of Persian Mathematics that was eventually transmitted to Europe

Al-Farabi was also the first Muslim logician to develop a non-Aristotelian logic. He discussed the topics of future contingents, the number and relation of the categories, the relation between logic and grammar, and non-Aristotelian forms of inference.[16] He is also credited for categorizing logic into two separate groups, the first being "idea" and the second being "proof."

Abd al-Rahman al-Khazini (Arabic: عبدالرحمن الخزيني‎) (flourished 1115–1130) was a Greek Muslim scientist, astronomer, physicist, biologist, alchemist, mathematician and philosopher from Merv,ncluded in his astronomical treatise az-Zij as-Sanjarī or Sinjaric Tables, Al-Khazini gave a description of his construction of a 24 hour water clock designed for astronomical purposes, an early example of an astronomical clock, and the positions of 46 stars computed from the date given in the Almagest for the year 500 AH (1115-1116 CE). He also computed tables for the observation of celestial bodies at the latitude of Merv

For those who have never met a Muslim - i'm guessing none of you have - they are regular people.

Posted by: franny

Franny, thank God you cleared that up for me.

I have met a Muslim, and on one of those occasions I met a Muslim, I caught him praying to Mecca while he was manning a cash register. Not a big deal, really, but I didn't have to ask him if he was Muslim.

I have bumped into other people I strongly suspect, for one reason or another, were Muslim.

... guess what? I was not threatened in any way by these Muslims I have met.

But I would never come out here and reassure everyone that any members of (fill in the blank religious group) are "regular people" simply because I have met X number of them, and those turned out to be peaceful relationships.

So, your statement "they are regular people" could not possibly be based solely on your personal, peaceful experiences with Muslims.

You do realize how ridiculous that premise is from a scientific standpoint, don't you?

Please provide some backup to your assertion that Muslims are "regular people". Please be sure to outline how all those "moderate" Muslims, you know, the ones who silently, passively support the imposition of sharia wherever in the world they have decided to colonize, er, uh live, are "regular people."

I know there are lots of peaceful Muslims who don't go along with the global jihad. I just can't tell how many of them there are among the Muslim community.

You apparently can, otherwise, how could you possibly support the generalization that “they are regular people” ?

Please share.

I've studied astronomy quite a bit. True, many of the "common names" for stars that are used today are Arabic in origin. However, most of that work was done prior to Mohummed's time. And a lot of it wasn't really terribly original; they used charts that the Greeks had drawn and just gave things new Arabic names. The Arab astronomers propagated a lot of the misinformation about the sky, the stars, and planetary motions that found its way into medivial Catholic teaching, and had to be shot down by the Renaissance scholars.

Alchemy was a dead end too. Modern chemistry accomplished more in its first fifty years than alchemy had managed in 2000 years.

i think the question should be how could you possibly support the generalization that they are otherwise?

and the governments of the ME are primarily dictatorships...with a lot of $$...its not like the people get to vote every 4 yrs...so if you are thinking that these govts truly represent the people you are wrong...remember Bush was ours for 8 looong years imagine if we could never get rid of him?!

As for Sark the Shark, I can't figure him out. He does stuff like this for a while, you start to think that he's gone off message, and then all of a sudden wham! he gets back on point with a vengence. Is he playing us? Is he trying to triangulate both sides? Or, when he makes statements like the above (which, per my high-school French, reads even more outrageously declaratory than it does in English), is he trying to send a coded message? Illustrating absurdity by being absurd? Or trying to bait the French Muslims into making a big mistake? I just can't get a read on it. Oh well, at least it's not de Villipan.

Abu Abdallah Muhammad ibn Jabir ibn Sinan ar-Raqqi al-Harrani as-Sabi al-Batani --Couldnt find his name on the list

Omar Khayyam was famous during his times as a mathematician.
Was perisan not arab and many of his poems rejected the tennets of the muslim faith. His distain of islam was openly recognised

Al-Farabi was also the first Muslim logician to develop a non-Aristotelian logic.
But not the first person apparently, just the first person of his religion, hardly noteworthy unless you dont count the acomplishment of other cultures.

Read his thought on the ordering of the universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Farabi#Metaphysics_and_cosmology

Abd al-Rahman al-Khazini (Didnt see hi name anywhere either, got links for those two?

oy vey! you need to learn how to do your own research. your local library can help you..

Khayyam was Muslim regardless and al-farabi still made notable contributions...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khazini

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Batani

btw, these were just examples you could read/research further on your own.

peace out.

and all this smacks of xenophobia

just because u share the occasional cocktail w a gay neighbor or tell your Mexican gardner where to plant your roses we are suddenly to believe you are the antithesis of xenophobia?...hardly.

g'night

franny,

franny comment:

“i think the question should be how could you possibly support the generalization that they are otherwise?”

Well, franny, you have answered my question with a question, which is polemically unsound. I am not making the generalization that they are otherwise. I am asking you to support your generalization that they are, sorry, you still need to do that.

franny comment:

and the governments of the ME are primarily dictatorships...with a lot of $$...its not like the people get to vote every 4 yrs...so if you are thinking that these govts truly represent the people you are wrong...remember Bush was ours for 8 looong years imagine if we could never get rid of him?!

Really, franny, what does this have to do with the price of beans?

I am talking about the worldwide threat of Islam, as a pernicious ideology, and those muslims who follow those pernicious tenets (contained in the Koran, et. al.).

For example, how about all those Muslim imports into the UK who are pushing (with some success) to pollute the British legal system with sharia law? Are those folks all part of that bunch of “regular people “ you have referred to?

If you respond, please try hard to stay on point this time.

Amy has a gardener? Wow... Doesn't seem very fiscally conservative at all..
The occasional cocktail w/ the gay neighbor? Again.. doesn't seem like Amy at all. From what I've gathered by reading her blogs, she's a supporter of Gay Rights, has many, many gay friends and isn't xenophobic.(For example, a xenophobic person would NOT travel outside of their city/country. Amy has done both. Repeatedly. )
Now that I've got that off my chest, I'll address Franny.
You, Franny, are exactly what is wrong with this country. You have no idea how the real world works nor do you want to take the time to figure it out. You and others like you are going to be the first ones killed by those very Muslims you adore. They despise you and only use your ignorance to spread their propaganda.
Don't believe me? Go live in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, or any other Muslim country and see exactly how "free" you are as a female and a westerner. Granted, some Muslim countries are "progressive", but the women there are by no means free. They (Men and Women) have no freedom of religion, no freedom of speech, and none of the civil rights that we take for granted.
I can tell you this until I am blue in the face, but I won't. You, Franny, are a dead horse, and I'm tired of kicking you.

just because u share the occasional cocktail w a gay neighbor or tell your Mexican gardner where to plant your roses we are suddenly to believe you are the antithesis of xenophobia?...hardly.

I'm sorry you're not that smart, especially since correcting your dimwittery is a bit of a time-suck. Xenophobia means being afraid of foreigners. Almost all of the many gay people I know and am friends with are as American as I am (one's a lesbian Republican in Beverly Hills with two amazing boys). I'm a staunch supporter of gay rights, especially gay marriage (just search a few related terms on my blog), help a lot of young gay kids who write to me with coming out issues, and have read the research on gay parenting by Judith Stacy (who happens to be a friend) and Timothy Bednarz.

There IS a gardener who comes around here. I like him and bring him a coke and say hi when I see him. However, I don't own my house, so the maintenance is up to my landlord. If it were up to me, I'd plant native plants and let them grow wild. I certainly wouldn't garden myself. I consider gardening to be a form of farming, and I am decidely not a farmer.

Again, I'm sorry you're thick in the head, but perhaps if you left the religion of Islam, you'd have better values. To explain why, here's a piece from The American Thinker:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/islam_and_the_problem_of_ratio.html

Any hope of the development of a rational tradition within Islam was dashed with the rise of Caliph Ja'afar al-Mutawakkil (847-861). Prior to al-Mutawakkil's rule, a rationalist philosophy had begun to develop under the Mu'tazilite school of interpretation, which advocated for a created, as opposed to an uncreated, Quran. But Caliph al-Mutawakkil condemned the Mu'tazilite school, which opened the door for the rival Ash'arite interpretation, founded by al-Ash'ari (d. 935), to eventually take preeminence within Sunni Islam - a position of dominance it has retained over the centuries. By 1200 A.D., any hope of recovering a semblance of rational Islamic philosophy was seemingly forever lost.

It was the work of the very Islamic philosophers that Ramadan cites that prompted Europe Christian thinkers to make a break with their Muslim counterparts. Historically, the views of the Ash'arite school were rooted in the theological dogma of "volunteerism", which holds that rather than created objects having inherent existence, Allah constantly recreates each atom anew at every moment according to his arbitrary will. This, of course, undermines the basis for what Westerners understand as natural laws.

From volunteerism sprung another irrational idea amongst Muslim thinkers - occasionalism - that further prevented the development of rationalism within the Islamic tradition. Occasionalism is the belief that in the natural world, what is perceived as cause and effect between objects is mere appearance, not reality. Instead, only Allah truly acts with real effect; all seemingly natural observances of causation are merely manifestations of Allah's habits, for Allah simultaneously creates both the cause and the effect according to his arbitrary will. This view is best expressed by one of the Islamic philosophers cited by Ramadan, al-Ghazali (1059-1111), in his book, The Incoherence of the Philosophers:

Here's how it works for gays and lesbians under Islam (from a piece with related sick stuff that goes on in Muslim countries) by Peter Tatchell, if you'll click the link:

http://www.petertatchell.net/religion/dark%20ages.htm

The common goal that unites Islamic fundamentalists the world over is the establishment of a religious state where every aspect of life is determined by the principles of the Koran and Muslim tradition. This means the creation of a state where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by death.

Same-sex relationships are currently outlawed in 26 Islamic countries: Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Iran, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Tunisia, Turkmenistan, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

Islam is also a significant and growing influence in Senegal, Nigeria, Chad, Somalia, Turkey, and the southern Philippines. In these states, the social opprobrium heaped on lesbian and gay people is very severe: beatings and disownment by their families are common place, driving some to depression and suicide. Those not caught out, usually feel pressured to deny their sexuality and force themselves into tragic, loveless marriages.

In only three Islamic-dominated nations are there no laws against homosexuality: Egypt, Indonesia and Iraq. Nevertheless, even in these countries public attitudes remain hostile and gay people are subjected to periodic police victimisation.

Of the Islamic states that ban lesbian and gay sex: Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen enforce the death penalty. Pakistan specifies two years to life imprisonment, plus flogging. In Malaysia the maximum sentence is 20 years and in the United Arab Emirates it's 14. Bangladesh and Libya are considered fairly moderate in Islamic fundamentalist terms, with punishments of seven and five years' jail respectively.

Iran is the most zealously homophobic Islamic country. Since 1980, when the fundamentalists came to power under the leadership of Ayatollah Khomeini, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed, according to estimates by the exiled Iranian homosexual rights group, Homan.

In the early 1980's, for example, 70 people were executed after they attempted to set up a lesbian and gay organisation. Nearly 100 homosexuals were sentenced to death in 1992 following a raid on a private party.

It is notoriously difficult to be certain about the exact number of lesbians and gays killed because some executions take place in secret, and the relatives of those killed often try to cover up the true reason, due to the strong social stigma associated with homosexuality. Another factor preventing an accurate estimate is the regime's resort to false allegations of homosexuality against political opponents, in a bid to discredit them. Trumped up charges of homosexuality were levelled against a Sunni Muslim leader, Dr. Ali Mozaffarian, who was executed in Shiraz in 1992.

The methods of killing lesbians and gays in Iran include: beheading with a sword, stoning to death, burning alive, and throwing from a mountain top or high building.

The death penalty applies not only to sodomy, but to repeated offences of lesser sexual acts such as mutual masturbation and body rubbing. The mere act of two people of the same sex lying naked together "without any necessity" is a crime punishable by up to 99 lashes. One man kissing another, even "without lust", merits 60 lashes. These floggings are so severe that they can cause permanent injury to internal organs, gross open wounds, and sometimes death.

The Iranian authorities stepped up their crusade against homosexuality in 1990, with a wave of public executions. On the first day of the new crackdown, three gay men were beheaded in a city square in Nahavand, and two women accused of lesbianism were stoned to death in Langrood. Justifying these killings, the Iranian Chief Justice, Morteza Moghtadai, declared: "The religious punishment for the despicable act of homosexuality is death for both parties".

Simultaneously, Ayatollah Ali Khameni denounced "homosexuality, male and female". He condemned Britain and the USA for promoting gay relationships, falsely claiming the two countries had legalised marriages between people of the same sex. Homosexuality was, he said, a symptom of the decay and corruption of western culture.

According to BBC monitored reports, his colleague, Ayatollah Musavi-Ardebili, demanded the strict enforcement of Islamic punishments for lesbian and gay behaviour. Describing the procedures for the execution of homosexuals, he told students at Tehran University in 1990:

"They should seize him (or her), they should keep him standing, they should split him in two with a sword, they should either cut off his neck or they should split him from the head. ... After he is dead, they bring logs, make a fire and place the corpse on the logs, set fire to it and burn it. Or it should be taken to the top of a mountain and thrown down. Then the parts of the corpse should be gathered together and burnt. Or they should dig a hole, make a fire in the hole and throw him alive into the fire.

"We do not have such punishments for other offences", boasted the Ayatollah. "There cannot be the slightest degree of mercy or compassion. ... Praise be to God."

Lesbians and gay men living in countries dominated by the New Dark Ages of Islamic fundamentalism cannot afford the liberal luxury of tolerating religious fanaticism. For them, the politically correct arguments about 'cultural sensitivity' smack of surrender to the extremists who jeopardise their freedom - and their lives.

Barbarians.

And if you want to call me "xenophobic" for being terrified for my gay friends and all gay people that Sharia law would ever be installed here -- as is the goal, per the Quran, of installing "The New Caliphate" -- yeah, I'm pretty fucking terrified of the ugly foreigners who would do that. Me? I'm partial to democracy and The Enlightenment, and live and let live. Who you're attracted to and how you get sexual pleasure is really none of my business, as long as you're doing it with some other consenting adult (not molesting children like Mohammed did, marrying Aisha at 6 and having sex with her when she was 9, the sick fuck).

These catholics also ignore the little commandments about stoning people to death

If the Catholics did this stuff, I'd be railing against them, too, at the same volume I'm railing against Islam. Christians merely boycott you or sign petitions against you if they find you objectionable. They don't strap on bomb vests and blow you up. And their religious leaders certainly aren't standing up before them telling them it's their duty to do so. I seem to remember some Jesus stuff about "turn the other cheek," in fact.

Ah, here's another hilarious one -- I was on deadline today, so I'm just reading some of this now. When I asked for reference to some of those great scientific minds of Islam, franny obliged...but had to dig back a few years, to come up with a 12th century scientist and another guy who lived from 858-929. Again, check out the list of 160-plus Jews who have won Nobel prizes in the past 100 years. What have you Muslims done for the rest of us lately? (I mean...besides free demolition on two human being-filled Manhattan skyscrapers I used to walk through on my way home from shopping at Century 21.)

Franny - "Arabs/Muslims have made huge contributions to math and science."

I went to the wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists

which lists many names. Here's a small random sample of them with dates:

1. Yaʿqūb ibn Ṭāriq was an 8th century Persian[1] astronomer and mathematician.
2. Abunaser (c. 872[2] – between 14 December 950 and 12 January 951) was a Muslim polymath
3. Ahmad ibn 'Abdallah Habash al-Hasib al-Marwazi (Arabic: أحمد بن عبدالله المروزي حبش الحاسب‎) was a Persian astronomer [...] He made observations from 825 to 835
4. Abu 'Ali Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Ya'qub Ibn Miskawayh, (Persian: ابن مسكوويه) also known as Ibn Miskawayh (932-1030) was a prominent Persian philosopher
5. Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī (973-1048), considered the "first anthropologist"[13] and father of Indology[14]
6. Abu Ja'far Ahmad bin Abi Khalid Ibn al-Jazzar Al-Qayrawani (circa 898-980) (Arabic: أبو جعفر أحمد بن أبي خالد بن الجزار القيرواني‎), was a 10th century influential Arab Muslim physician
7. Piri Reis (full name Hadji Muhiddin Piri Ibn Hadji Mehmed) (about 1465–1554 or 1555) was an Ottoman-Turkish admiral, geographer and cartographer born between 1465 and 1470
8. Maslama al-Majriti (Arabic أبو القاسم مسلمة بن أحمد المجريطي) (b. Madrid – d. 1008 or 1007 CE), was an Arab Muslim astronomer
9. Omar Khayyam was famous during his times as a mathematician. He wrote the influential Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra (1070)
10. Abū Rayḥān Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad al-Bīrūnī (Persian: ابوریحان محمد بن احمد بیرونی) (born 15 September 973 in Kath

There's just not a lot been happening in Islam for the last thousand years or so. I reckon there's about 300 names on that wiki page, almost entirely pre-Renaissance, pre-Enlightenment. For comparison, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_scientists - a list of Scottish scientists. It has about 70 names, all from the last 400 years. Scotland has a population of about 5 million people. There are reportedly over a billion Muslims - that's over 200 times as many Muslims as Scots. (Not counting Scottish Muslims!) If Muslims produced as many scientists as Scotland, it would have 14000 names on the list, not 300.

Islam had a golden age. Then it was taken over by the clerics. End of golden age.

I love it! "There is probably no god...":

http://ca.lifestyle.yahoo.com/family-relationships/articles/archive/cp/home_family-atheist_transit_ads_proposed_for_toronto_could_roll_into_other_canadian_cities

Karin, yes, your arguments have been decimated. No, you don't get to post off-topic here. I'm an atheist and I read dozens of newspapers a week. If I'd want to post about the buses, I would've.

Norman is exactly right. The Scots, with their tiny population size, are wildly more successful in science than the Muslims. Islam promotes murder and backward thinking that is antithetical to the growth of science. A pity Muslims weren't more worried about Islamic literacy around the globe instead of converting or killing "the infidel" per the Quran.

A question: How many illiterate Jews do you think there are in the world? How many Scots?

Islam in the Muslim world apparently "approximates 80 percent." (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Q_awake/ch4p6.htm) There are over a billion Muslims, if you go with Norm's figure. That's a buttload of illiterates. Search "Jews literacy," and I guarantee you you won't find what you do when you search Muslim literacy. All the articles will be about how literate the Jews are.

There is a difference between religions, and if I have to be on a planeload of people, I feel safer if I'm on with a bunch of Jews, Christians and Quakers who will busy themselves reading airport novels and playing Nintendo on the flight, and not lighting their shoes and trying to blow themselves and the rest of us up. No, all Muslims don't want to do that. But, enough do. And anybody with a brain, humanity, ethics, and a love for life should be railing against that.

xenophobia - an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange...so it could include homosexuals, if they are strange to you.

James - do you just like quoting definitions, or do you have a point?

I also disagree on my arguments being decimated. The consquence for adultery, as per the old testament, is death. There is also a tithing rule to give 10% of your earnings over to god. That is "biblical" fact.

As for the number of deaths in the world over communism...the same could be said for capitalism. It's the winner who writes history. We just happen to think we're the good guys so all those deaths in the name of captialism are justified.

All I am trying to say is that there are "fairweather" Jews and Christians. You know them...they are pretty much everyone - they are the ones that pick and choose what they want from the bible/Torah and toss out the rest. There are some christians who believe the bible tells them they CANNOT drink. Yet there are many who do. How do we account for this discrepancy within the same religion?

There are also "fairweather" Muslims. The Western world does that to religion.

I don't think there is really an Islamic conspiracy in the west to terrorize and take over the USA. I think the west would crush such a movement in seconds. I think the west could crush it abroad right now but chooses not to because it isn't economically viable. Western Capitalism rules the world and I don't see that changing anytime soon and not one person in the forum (including Amy) has provided any argument that can sway me from the belief that western capitalism will continue to rule and that Islam (or any other idealism) cannot bring it down.

Karin -

What do you think specifically of the demographic argument? If Muslims have larger families than non-Muslims, and people stick to their parents' religion, then you can calculate the date when Muslims will be in the majority in any population.

These are big "if"s but it's not a complicated argument, so it's hard to see where an error of logic might be hiding in it. Also, I believe demographic change has had effect in the recent past: in South Africa, the increasing black population was the force that brought apartheid to an end; and in Northern Ireland, the greater birth rate of Catholics compared to Protestants has removed the need for the IRA.

People do change, so it might be that Muslims will change in the 50 years or so it will take for them to overtake all others. But Islam has not changed much in the last thousand years, so I wouldn't count on it. Their declared aim is a global caliphate, and that's what we should expect.

At any rate, there's no need for "an Islamic conspiracy in the west to terrorize and take over the USA" if the USA is willing to simply step aside.

Mark Steyn's prediction of a Muslim Europe (aka "Eurabia") is coming to pass faster than even he thought! And yet we here in North America still keep getting lectured about what a horrible place we live in and that we should become more like Europe. Delusions!

Um karin I did decimate your aguments.

ou posted about arab scholars when we were talking about muslims

You see muslims are members of a religion and may or may not be arabs.

Meanwhile arabs may or may not be muslim.

In any case the ones you listed from the arab scholars list(not muslim scholars) werent even arabs. One of them was persian and was as muslim as I am mormon.
I am still a church member in that I dont care about the shitheads enough to try to convice them to take me of their member rolls.

Al-Khazini was greek, again not an arab.

Abd al-Rahman al-Khazini another greek FYI. designed a water clock? Oh those had been around for nearly 2000 yrs.

And his use of trigonomic mathmatics was 300yrs behind, once more, a hindu.

Want to try some new names?

No problem, I love writting about religion. Had I been a less honest man I could have made a fortune as a preacher

I often thought of starting my own religion.

I tell you I was a fucked up meglomanical little bastard durring my teens and early twenties.

I planned on forming a religion around sex, basically it would have been prostituion under the cloak of religion.

I realised it would never work though. Most people dont want to be part of a religion unless its constantly telling you how bad you are.

People would never go for a religion that told you you were good the way you are or one that clelbrates physical intimancy. They want an anthority figue to repremand then and spank their bottoms.

People are fucked up

I'm reading a story ("Whit" by Ian Banks) which revolves around a religious community that eschews technology. Lots of religious communities do that. I wondered about starting a religion called "Late Adopters" where you could only use technology that was at least 50 years old, giving us time to see if it was a good idea or not.

So, what was invented 50 years ago? Transistors? Formica?

http://www.fiftiesweb.com/pop/inventions.htm

I don't have a problem with self-reliant religious community (eg, Quackers) who refused technology, who don't go around burning other nations flags, who don't go around imposing on others or misleadingly putting almost eveything under their religous banner.