People who refuse to face *themselves* with honesty will continue to force others (and their children) to eat their shit, and feel entitled to our validation.

OK, but men are dogs. Just sayin'.

You raise a valid point, Amy, and I continually applaud your efforts in fairness. I remember how you skewered a writer who saw nothing wrong with slugging a rather uncouth drunk in a bar for asking her bra size. I still use those references you made, by the way. When you told her that you were always entertained by the warning labels you see in the grocery store. When you pick up a can of mixed nuts, it will say, "Warning: Contains Nuts," or a package of cheese that says, "Warning: Contains cheese."

It now seems we need warning labels on the outside of bars, "Warning: contains drunks."

Or the woman who threw an ashtray at her fiance's head. You asked that if he had done the same to her, would he have signed himself, "Still Angry," or "Still In Court Trying To Get The Charges Reduced"?

Had the employees in this case been men, making similar comments about women, I can assure you that they would have been treated to more than a passing glare from an unamused customer. More likely, they would be at home, logging on to their computers while filing for unemployment benefits, after scanning the want ads.

"OK, but men are dogs. Just sayin'."

And not alone.

OK, but men are dogs. Just sayin'.

Dude, speak for yourself.

I'm more of a wombat.

I hear the women are bitches line as much as I hear the men are pigs line. The people making these statements make poor choices continuously and never consider that they are responsible in these choices. They would rather just spout off men are pigs or women are bitches while waiting for the white horse or Meghan Fox to show up.

Women being hostile to men usually relates to the fact that a man makes a very bad woman. If they have skewed expectations, they'll of course end up with a skewed & negative opinion.

The ones who say "vive la differance!" are the happy ones that love men and are loved by them.

I'm not a ... wait a minute! According to my chosen Web persona, I *am* a dog!
But in reality I'm just as nice a person as you could want to meet. Here, I'll buy you a drink. As long as it's not too expensive.

I've never understood why being called a "dog" is supposed to be an insult. If people wish to compare me to an intelligent animal whose most outstanding characteristic is his loyalty, all I can say is, "Thank you."

It has been said that the area I live is 20 years behind the rest of the country, but when I hear stories like this, I'm glad of it. True, you sometimes hear "Men are pigs" around here, but most of the time, it's a joke, not something meant to be an actual insult.

I work almost exclusively with men and all I hear every day is that women are "evil". blah blah blah. Don't care. So why would I care if some chick is saying that men are pigs?

I've never understood why being called a "dog" is supposed to be an insult. If people wish to compare me to an intelligent animal whose most outstanding characteristic is his loyalty, all I can say is, "Thank you."

My dog pees on the floor and spends most of the day licking herself.

Piggies are pretty smart animals, too. Don't know if they're much for loyalty, though.

My dog pees on the floor and spends most of the day licking herself.

And if human beings could do that, most would.

Ah, yes, I seem to remember that old Helen Reddy hit, I Am Woman, Hear Me Oink...

I hear this kind of stuff from both sides all day.

Lots of guys talk to me about women problems and I listen. There ARE a lot of pigs and bitches out there. People are really crazy.

I don't get that insulted when I hear "all women are crazy/bitches/whatever" because, in my experience, there are a lot of unstable people in the world and based on my everyday interactions it is more likely than not I will witness some crazy. In general.

If someone wants to be ignorant and paint an entire gender (or race, or religion, or sexual orientation group) as this or that it's their problem. Lots of people are biased and unfair and dumb. Calling them out on it most likely will not get you very far, but it'll probably get you a confrontation. People don't want to hear it and will just stick to their bullshit even more. I try every now and then to help enlighten the bitchy masses, or at least counsel my friend to realize she just picks pigs, but not all men *are* pigs and that sorta stuff. But mostly, I just try to hang out with my non-crazy friends.

Pigs are also tasty with applesauce.

Monica P writes: My dog pees on the floor and spends most of the day licking herself.

You see? All the more reason it's a flattering comparison!

There's a cashier at Central Market who's MEAN to my husband whenever he ends up at her counter. She's nice to me, though. I guess she has an issue with white men.

(And speaking of dogs, mine tried to mount my brother-in-law last night. The dog's not typically humpy- this was totally out of character. I'm still laughing about it this morning.)

Young people saying all members of the oppositve sex are #$@#$ is hardly a big deal.

Probably the girl just got dumped. And yes I HAVE heard men say all women are bitches. Usually when they just got dumped.

Young people are highly likely to get dumped. It's part of the dating process. And their friends say things like "All men/women are @#$!@#%" or "S/he didn't deserve you. You can do better" or "That person is such a @!#$%"

I agree you shouldn't do it in front of clients and customers. But it is hardly proof of some social problem.

I don't think all women are bitches, but I do think many of them are extremely misguided by feminism.

Young women-like the one in this story- are brainwashed by the feminist mantra that all men are bad.

Because feminism has so heavily infected our universities young women hear this message and think it must be some kind of fact or else why would they learn it in college.

When someone like- Dr. Helen in this case- confronts someone's prejudicial mindset by asking a simple question, it forces that person to introspectively think for themselves whether the message they are receiving is actually fact.
That's the problem with people who learn by rote memorization-They just repeat what they have "learned" without ever questioning it.

The work of these 'piggish men' allow women and men to have one of the highest standards of living in the world and the freedom to enjoy it.

You know that dwelling that you live in that has a refrigerator, hot and cold water, heating/AC , television, computer, cell phone, stereo, automobile, planes, cruiseliners, clothing options that third world queens are envious of? All brought to you by piggish men.

What I would really like to see from feminists-and I would respect them a whole lot more- is to reject the above luxuries because they were invented or made possible by men. I would respect feminists a lot more if they will do that.

... and the reason she wouldn't have said "All women are bitches" is probably because she didn't just get dumped by a woman. But a young man would have said it.

The difference to me is, "all men are pigs" etc. has become an institution and constantly reinforced in our society by the media.

The difference to me is, "all men are pigs" etc. has become an institution and constantly reinforced in our society by the media.

As has "all women are bitches." Entire TV shows center around the idea that women will slit each other's throats at a moment's notice.

I'm more of a wombat.

There's an old military project management expression that says when a project is a WOMBAT it's a Waste Of Money, Brains, And Time.

There's an old military project management expression that says when a project is a WOMBAT it's a Waste Of Money, Brains, And Time.

All the more accurate then! Just ask my boss. Or my wife. But that would be FUBAR. As a football bat.

As has "all women are bitches." Entire TV shows center around the idea that women will slit each other's throats at a moment's notice.

You mean they won't?

Shit, watching Pelosi go after Harman you'd get all the confirming evidence you need for that theory.

Look, here's the thing: I can be a bitch, at times, but I'm not a bitch all the time. I think that's the difference. Women who are bitches 24/7 are just that. Those of us who are pretty cool, for the most part, can turn into a bitch if need be, at the appropriate times. Then we just revert back to the regular coolness.

(This can sometimes take a lot of people by surprise, especially our children and our exes, but it really shouldn't. There's a time for being a bitch, and a time for not being a bitch. Like Swayze said in Roadhouse: "Be nice. Until it's time not to be nice.) o.O

And "bitch" is relative. Sometimes, all you need to be a bitch is to not let people walk all over you.

The thing is, anyone who is having current love troubles is liable to make sweeping generalizations about the desired gender. As are their friends in their attempts to cheer them up. It doesn't mean they really think that!

I am not a bitch, I am a sloth. Like any moron doesn't know the difference.

I wish we could all just use more dignified language. My dad is here, and he's such a polite, southern gentleman. I don't think I've ever heard him use a term like "bitch". Everyone is coming up to me and saying how much they enjoy him and his "charming way of speaking", but it may, in fact, be that his language just isn't peppered with that sort of slang and negativity. They aren't used to it.

At 78, it's not that he's never met a bitch, but he would just never call anyone that, much less a whole gender.

At least people should say, "SOME men are pigs...or SOME women are bitches." But, honestly, we should have better self-expression and self-control than to reduce ourselves to using those terms.

Well to hay-ulll with all this hatin'! I am job-free for the next week and off to ride my bike. Pigs & bitches! You all racist, too.

That be CODE WORD for racist, dawgs.

Bitches lovin' they puppies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwTxlIcGXyQ&feature=featured

Pedal to the roll for stinkin' drinkin' and fightin' crime, see you all pimps & hos front and center when I wake up.

They see me rollin' ... they hatin' ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqYiPx8wbnM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrDuGyZ6FA

Young women-like the one in this story- are brainwashed by the feminist mantra that all men are bad.

Because feminism has so heavily infected our universities young women hear this message and think it must be some kind of fact or else why would they learn it in college.

Oh God...I was wondering how long it would take before someone started screaming the horrors of feminism.

Isn't it possible that this woman was fresh off of a breakup or just stupid?

My response when I hear statements like that is to tell the person that asserting that all men are pigs only shows that her taste in men sucks. 50% of the population cannot be blamed for her lack of discernment and taste.

-Julie

And "bitch" is relative. Sometimes, all you need to be a bitch is to not let people walk all over you.

And, as Dolores Claiborne would say, "Sometimes, being a bitch is all a woman has to hold on to."

Certainly, all women are not bitches. They are, however, willing to learn .... ;)

I'm perfectly comfortable being called a bitch, and I am a bitch -- to the deserving. As a few of you have pointed out above, it's what they call you when you aren't willing to let them wipe their muddy feet off on you.

From my perspective the issue is this is unprofessional conversation in a working environment.

I'm here to buy my groceries, not hear about your latest date, break up, what your plans are after shift, the holy terrors that are your kids, spouse, pets or in-laws, the ass-hole cop who ticketed you for crossing the street against the light while texting on your cell phone . . . (for the record, I live in a small town and the main industry is tourism; the cops aren't that busy so yes, they do issue lots of jaywalking tickets and given the pedestrian deaths and accidents we've had on the main drag over the past few years, the locals should know better!) When I answer the phone at my place of work I don't treat you to my list of why my day sucks because all you want me to do is help you with the issue/problem you're having as it relates to our company and my job.

Save the all men are pigs discussion for your breaks or happy hour. And have a bacon wrapped cocktail weenie . . . good stuff!

I'm a proud DAWG. Wassup shizznits?

Speaking of bitches...Dr. Helen really sounds like she has a stick up her ass, or a chip on her shoulder. If you go around looking to be offended all the time, then you're probably going find something to offend you.

Speaking of bitches...Dr. Helen really sounds like she has a stick up her ass, or a chip on her shoulder. If you go around looking to be offended all the time, then you're probably going find something to offend you.

Posted by: Shannon at September 29, 2009 1:11 PM

Ding, ding, ding! I think we have a troll!

"Sometimes, all you need to be a bitch is to not let people walk all over you."

Monica, this is an intereting thing about this word. many usages are based on a definition that specifically means exactly the opposite. Being "someone's bitch" or "going bitch" means becoming servile, and by extension, underhanded, devious, whiny, snappish etc. It is the natural extension of a self-image of the ever-suffering martyr, the little woman who sacrifices herself for a bunch of ingrates (who probably never asked or were even asked if they wanted all this sacrifice aimed at them.) It's a cheap attempt at a con-job.

Young women-like the one in this story- are brainwashed by the feminist mantra that all men are bad.

Because feminism has so heavily infected our universities young women hear this message and think it must be some kind of fact or else why would they learn it in college.

Oh God...I was wondering how long it would take before someone started screaming the horrors of feminism.

Isn't it possible that this woman was fresh off of a breakup or just stupid?
-Julie

Posted by: Julie at September 29, 2009 11:48 AM
-----------------------------------
Isn't it possible that she is repeating the feminist dogma?

When you lead with the- isn't it possible arguement- it is a lazy way of dismissing someone's talking point without actually commenting on what they said.

Oh God...I was wondering how long it would take before someone started screaming the horrors of feminism.
Julie

Posted by: Julie at September 29, 2009 11:48 AM
---------------------
Before you dismiss someone's point I would recommend you read Warren Farrell to get a perspective of the "horrors of feminism."

Warren Farrell is a very knowledgeable, analytical and introspective writer.

Warren Farrell was actually elected to the board of directors for The National Organization For Women in New York City 3 times (1971-1974).

I would recommend you read his books-The Myth Of Male Power and Does Feminism Discriminate Against Men? I doubt you will take the time to read his books or even Wiki him.

My guess is you are more like the young lady in this article. You want to spout your opinion- rather than learn something by doing your homework.

"All men are pigs" is more a sign of bitterness than feminist indoctrination. I say this as a feminist who somehow missed the Men Suck memo. It's the kind of thing someone says when they're angry and hurt and making sweeping generalizations about people they don't know is easier than allowing for human variation.

It just gets tiresome when you guys keep interjecting the evils of feminsim into EVERY conversation. Not that there isn't a time and place for that discussion, but not every single event stems from the effects of feminism. That's all Julie was saying.

It's much more likely that this girl had just been dumped or hurt. Women who say things like that are more often than not alluding to "players". Men who use them for sex and dump them. That is usally how the term is meant by the average woman, complainingabout her love life, not as some feminist commentary. I'm sure you guys have the same sort of "women suck" pow wows sometimes too.

I'm sure you guys have the same sort of "women suck" pow wows sometimes too.

Usually, we're complaining about the ones that don't.

DAMN, Chang! Marcellus makes Pirate Jo look like Wayne Brady!

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=11925

"I'm here to buy my groceries, not hear about your latest date, break up, what your plans are after shift, the holy terrors that are your kids, spouse, pets or in-laws, the ass-hole cop who ticketed you for crossing the street against the light while texting on your cell phone"

Yes, please spare us from check out clerks, baggers, bank tellers and department store ladies with issues...I don't like hearing it, I shudder at some of the things I hear, I don't need it, just let my buy what I came for.

The one who takes the cake in my case is the bank employee who called me into her office to take care of my checking account, instead of having me wait for my usual person to return from break. I said I didn't mind waiting a few more minutes for B, she said 'No, come on in, I'll have you out of here in no time', so I went in. She made two or three consecutive errors accessing my account, and then suddenly blew up with 'I can't do this today! I'm waiting for the results of an ultrasound to see if my baby has birth defects!"

What the HELL do you say to that?

I always speak up when someone who's waiting on me makes a remark like that. While some posters bring up the issue of men saying 'All women are bitches' the majority of remarks I hear made by men refer to a specific woman, women's remarks about men (like the check-out clerk above) tend to be directed at men as a whole. I think "Men-can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em" is a much nastier version of the old "Women-can't live with 'em , can't live without 'em" .

'Dr. Helen really sounds like she has a stick up her ass, or a chip on her shoulder.'

Women are now so used to denigrating men, that it doesn't even seem offensive any more to most of them. It comes as naturally as breathing.

Sorry, that was supposed to be 'denigrating men or hearing denigration of men daily that'

Among my circle of friends, I have never heard anyone say anything remotely as ridiculous as "all women are bitches". We discuss how some women are bitches, or how the legal system is often biased against men. But no-one would dream of coming out with a statement as ludicrous as "all women are bitches". If anyone did say such a thing, it would be assumed that they were some kind of wacko who had lost the plot. They would probably then be surreptitiously excluded from future drinks and activities. I'm not suggesting that such talk might not be acceptable among certain groups, but not among those with any pretensions of decency.

One close friend of mine is in his mid-40s and has been a victim of serious domestic violence in an on/off relationship with a woman with bipolar (she actually did a short stint in jail for it). My friend had to have reconstructive work done on his face after the last assault, and he struggles to play the guitar due to damage to his thumb. This is a big problem because he is a musician.

Yet does he sit around talking about how "all women are bitches"? Hell no. He still dates women and talks to female friends about his problems. He still wants to have a good relationship with a better woman.

The biggest difference between men and women is that for women it often takes fewer negative experiences with men for them to develop a more general hostility towards men. While men have to be burned a little more to give up on women.

Dr. Helen really sounds like she has a stick up her ass, or a chip on her shoulder.'

Women are now so used to denigrating men, that it doesn't even seem offensive any more to most of them. It comes as naturally as breathing.

Posted by: crella at September 29, 2009 5:12 PM
--------------------------------
Dr. Helen is a bright lady, read her column.
She is giving people a clue about a pervasive attitude in our society. Sadly, many don't want to hear it, probably because it's just a slam on men.

"It comes as naturally as breathing." And that doesn't bother you?
It bothers me. The lack of appreciation of men by women in this society influences our governmental policies as well as our courts.
And I as a male am offended.

I had an online discussion several years ago at a place called Mother and Child, an Australian parenting website. A woman started a thread called All Men Are Bastards.

I, politely, stated that I thought that this was really unfair, that I had a husband, brothers, a son and lots of friends who were not bastards and that I found sexism in either gender offensive. I asked how she would feel if a man came in and started a similar thread called All Women Are Bitches.

The woman became increasingly irate and abusive. The moderator decided that the woman needed a "safe place" to vent her feelings and that my comments and her replies should be removed.

Sigh.

Nick, it sounds like you and your friend are more mature than this chick.

"All men are pigs" "All women are bitches" are statements usually made by people who've been hurt and are lashing out in a childish way. It's immature. You know, like "Girls are doodoo heads" or "Boys are rotten made out of cotten".

My favorite of all was "Boys/Girls go to Jupiter to get more stupider".

Nick, it sounds like you and your friend are more mature than this chick.

"All men are pigs" "All women are bitches" are statements usually made by people who've been hurt and are lashing out in a childish way. It's immature. You know, like "Girls are doodoo heads" or "Boys are rotten made out of cotten".

My favorite of all was "Boys/Girls go to Jupiter to get more stupider".

FYI- 2 more books related to this subject

1. The War Against Boys- by Christina
Hoff Sommers
2. Saving the Males- by Kathleen
Parker

A group of guys at my marina were discussing "women drivers" the other night. They said, "all women can't drive!" and I argued that was a very broad generalization. But they told stories of being hit by women drivers, being behind them at stoplights while they "fixed their make-up," etc. One guy had actually had a woman back up over the hood of his car. It was kind of funny, and personally sort of true for me, as I'm admittedly not the best driver, but I'm sure there are women who can drive very well.

The spirit of the conversation wasn't really mean (of course, I was there, so they may have been nicer), but they were definitely stereotyping.

It also isn't infrequent for me to walk up and hear guys talking about "those bitches" or "sluts" or "coke whores", etc. I think it's a bit disengenuious to act like guys are these little boyscouts who only talk about women in poltically correct ways. C'mon, be fair. This sort of immature talk exists in both genders.

LS, here's what I think the difference is. Yes, men will sometimes say things about women. But in every case where I've ever heard it, it was because the man in question had been hurt or damaged by a woman, and was saying it to blow off steam. When a man says it, there's always animosity behind it. Inappropriate? Yes. But it's (usually) just a moment of anger. It passes. We all have those.

Sometimes, this is true for women too. A woman has been hurt by a man, and she'll say "All men are pigs!" She's just blowing off steam, and most people recognize that and let it pass. However, here's where the difference is: Womem will also say "All men are pigs!" without animosity. They'll state it as a fait accompli, just something that everyone knows. And if you say to her, "Don't you think that hurts men when you say that?", she'll look at you like you just sprouted another head: "Hurt men? Don't be silly. Men don't have feelings. Nothing hurts them." It's part of a belief system that regards men as sub-human, lacking in basic qualities that makes a human being. I have never, ever heard any man of my acquiantance speak of women in this manner.

"Dr. Helen is a bright lady, read her column.
She is giving people a clue about a pervasive attitude in our society. Sadly, many don't want to hear it, probably because it's just a slam on men.

"It comes as naturally as breathing." And that doesn't bother you?
It bothers me. The lack of appreciation of men by women in this society influences our governmental policies as well as our courts.
And I as a male am offended. "

David, I read Dr. Helen regularly. I was quoting Shannon at the top of my post...she said that Dr. Helen sounds like she has a stick where the sun doesn't shine, I was addressing that. When I said 'It comes as naturally as breathing' I was pointing out how women like Shannon are so inured to this kind of talk that when another woman protests it, they see it as a case of that woman being hypersensitive.

Meaning, I agree with you completely. :-D

Well, Cousin, I've honestly never heard a woman of my aquaintance say, "Men don't have feelings. Nothing hurts them." I have heard women make blanket statements like "Men are jerks!" etc, but it's almost always in relation to dating situations.

I think women have a frustration because so often men act like they're interested, then never call or simply disappear without a trace. It's more a comment on the lack of tact and manners many men display while dating, and I have to say that this was sometimes my experience too, although it didn't make me think ALL men were jerks, but there are definitely some jerks out there. Unfortunately, if a woman has had a run of those, it will proabably effect her overall opinion of men.

A lot of this could be changed if men could just learn to communicate a little better. There were a few guys who rejected me with such grace that, although it still hurt me to be rejected, I was also impressed, and it restored my faith in men's integrity. Plus, at least I knew not to wait around for their calls anymore. All it takes is just a "I really enjoyed going out with you, but although you're a nice person, I don't think we're a match." Done. Closure. Integrity.

I did that with the guys I wasn't interested in, and it's just a courtesy. Yet, very few men do it. So, my impression is that many women are annoyed at men's lack of dating manners. Don't pretend to be all into us, get us into to bed, then never call again. Or act like we're the "only one" then try to date 20 other girls behind our backs. Be honest and upfront.

These are, quite frankly, piggish behaviors. Just as there are dating behaviors of women - like golddigging - that piss you guys off too. Dating is frustrating for everyone and a few people's bad behavior can embitter either males or females towards the opposite sex. It's something that almost any dater has to guard against and not let themselves become too cynical. There are bad apples in any bunch.

It just gets tiresome when you guys keep interjecting the evils of feminsim into EVERY conversation. Not that there isn't a time and place for that discussion, but not every single event stems from the effects of feminism. That's all Julie was saying.

Thank you LS. You took the words right out of my mouth. The funny thing is that David M. obviously didn't read my response. I come to the defense of the general group of men when I encounter this BS. I just don't think that all of the world's problems can be blamed on feminism.

I'll quote it for David, just in case he wants to fully understand my position before making stupid assumptions:

My response when I hear statements like that is to tell the person that asserting that all men are pigs only shows that her taste in men sucks. 50% of the population cannot be blamed for her lack of discernment and taste.

I'm sure you guys have the same sort of "women suck" pow wows sometimes too.

Usually, we're complaining about the ones that don't.

ROFLOL! That is priceless!

-Julie

LS,

"A lot of this could be changed if men could just learn to communicate a little better. "

As in more the way you would like us to communicate? That's hardly the same as better.

"I think women have a frustration because so often men act like they're interested, then never call or simply disappear without a trace."

Disappearing without a trace is a pretty clear communication. How much more unambiguouis can it get?

This is the deal: men are not entitled to women's bodies and women are not entitled to men's time, or notice, for that matter. Simple enough.

This is the deal: men are not entitled to women's bodies and women are not entitled to men's time, or notice, for that matter. Simple enough.

Type it up, get a notary...and I'll sign it!

-Julie

That's a rather cynical view, Jim. No one is saying a guy has to write an essay or poetry, but it is simply ill-mannered not to "man-up" and tell a woman the truth. Not returning phone calls, texts, or e-mails is the coward's way out, and I think after the age of adulthood, that's not excusable, especially once you've been sexually intimate with someone. I'm sure you don't like it when women do that to you, so don't do it to them.

A simple response like the one I wrote is the well-mannered and considerate way to handle things. I think any guy can learn to do that. It's not communicating like a woman, just a gentleman.

Not to mention there are occassions when a man may regret handling things like a pussy. I've had guys who rejected me change course and pursue me again. Maybe they were hot for some other chick, who then rejected them, or otherwise distracted when we dated. Or they might run into me out with my hot girlfriend. If they handled things well, everything will be fine, but burning bridges is foolish. All it does is give you a reputation as a jerk.

I just don't think that all of the world's problems can be blamed on feminism.
Posted by: Julie at September 30, 2009 9:52 AM
------------------------------------

And who said all the worlds problems are due to feminism???

I realize I'm talking to deaf ears but- come on! No one ever made this statement.

That's really reaching, and usually reaching is associated with desperateness.

It's much more likely that this girl had just been dumped or hurt. Women who say things like that are more often than not alluding to "players". Men who use them for sex and dump them. That is usally how the term is meant by the average woman, complainingabout her love life, not as some feminist commentary. I'm sure you guys have the same sort of "women suck" pow wows sometimes too.

Posted by: lovelysoul at September 29, 2009 3:13 PM
------------------------------------
Actually see this portrayed quite a bit on TV, taught in our Universities and portrayed in today's "family courts."

Meaning, I agree with you completely. :-D

Posted by: crella at September 30, 2009 8:20 AM
----------------------------------
crella, Sorry. My apologies for not paging up far enough. David M.

You did suggest that the woman's comments were influenced by feminism, David M. In fact, several people did, directly or indirectly. But this was your quote:

"Young women-like the one in this story - are brainwashed by the feminist mantra that all men are bad.

Because feminism has so heavily infected our universities young women hear this message and think it must be some kind of fact or else why would they learn it in college."

Actually see this portrayed quite a bit on TV, taught in our Universities and portrayed in today's "family courts."
=====================

Should have been "played out" in today's family courts.

"You did suggest that the woman's comments were influenced by feminism, David M. "

I'm not David M, but I'll jump in: Actually, I think it's quite possible that her comments were influenced by feminism. LS, you've got to spend some time hanging out with the current twentysomething generation. The values you and I learned when we were growing up aren't the values they learned. You stated above that you can't believe that a woman would ever say that men don't have feelings. Well, I've heard it. More than once. But it's always been from this younger cohort. And yes, I did stop to ask myself if this isn't simply immaturity, and were we that bad when we were that age?

Answer: No, we weren't that bad. I don't recall ever hearing a woman of my own age say that men have no feelings. But you go and ask the average 23-year-old woman, and she'll tell you. She doesn't mind telling you, because to her, it's as obvious as the nose on your face. And why would she not believe that, when she's been taught it continuously since her first day of school? Primary education is almost totally girl-centered these days. Boys get the message from the age of 5 that they are inferior and will never measure up. The statistics prove it.

And where, pray tell, did that message come from? It sure wasn't from the traditional-values crowd. It came from gender feminism. It's the basis of their philosophy, and they have been extremely successful at forcing that philosophy into the American public school system. No, not all of the teachers believe that. Certainly not. But it doesn't matter, because the message comes down from on high, from the school boards, the administration, and ultimately the federal and state governments.

LS, I'm not at all sure about your age, but I'm guessing that you were in grade school sometime in the range of 1975-1990. I was a bit ahead of that, but I think the concept of feminism that you and I were taught in school is basically the same. But that feminism achieved the bulk of its goals. It's no longer an active force in society because, well, once you've won, it's time to stop fighting. The feminism that exists today is unrecognizable to me and my cohort. It's the feminism that went bad and morphed into an elaborate rationalization for special pleading. The very last thing today's feminists want is equality. No wonder you don't recognize it, and I can't blame you. I had to do a bunch of reading on it myself to convince myself that what I perceived was really happening.

No, not all of the world's problems can be blamed on feminism. But a lot of them can. And just because I'm paranoid, that doesn't mean that they aren't really out to get me.

And who said all the worlds problems are due to feminism???

I realize I'm talking to deaf ears but- come on! No one ever made this statement.

That's really reaching, and usually reaching is associated with desperateness.

And personal attacks indicate the user is unable to arrive at a logical place for debate.

My point is simple: Each time Amy blogs about something remotely associated with women behaving poorly toward men someone blames the behavior on feminism and attempts to start a rant about how feminism is poisoning the entire country and that women don't even know that they are under the influence of feminism. It is all and everywhere, sort of like 'the man'.

Women's problems relating to men cannot all be caused by feminism, just like men's problems relating to women can't all be caused by misogyny. Should we fight to make our courts more equitable? Yes. Should we speak out when we hear someone using bigoted speech? Yes, certainly. Is there a large conspiracy out to denigrate men that all women have been brainwashed into joining? Certainly not. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

-Julie

My point is simple: Each time Amy blogs about something remotely associated with women behaving poorly toward men someone blames the behavior on feminism and attempts to start a rant about how feminism is poisoning the entire country and that women don't even know that they are under the influence of feminism. It is all and everywhere, sort of like 'the man'.

It's an easy way out, a lot like "all men are pigs." It ties all crappy female behavior into a neat little bow. If only feminism didn't exist, men and women would waltz down the hallways of corporate America hand in hand, singing songs and farting rainbows.

Guys, some women are just really awful people, without a movement to attach to it.

In older times, rich folks did not consider their children educated until they spent a couple years in other nations. It is not possible to understand your own nation until you spend enough time in other societies to learn the things in your own society which are unique to it -- but which most people assume is the only way to do it.

Both men and women who have spent little time outside the Western influence simply do not notice the wall of hatred for men found everywhere within it. Or, of course, they assume it is logical and normal.

Here in Mexico, I can talk to little girls. When I walk downtown, several run out to the street for their forehead kiss.

There is a little girl, no relation, who asked me for help with English. Once, when I went, her mom was out, and she invited me to sit under the tree in the yard. When her mom came home, she didn't even blink, but gave me a cheery greeting. Before I would do such a thing in the US, I'd leap in front of a speeding truck to have a more painless finish.

I remember a year of two ago in California a man was arrested on $100,000 bond for talking to two kids, in plain sight of their mother. It was not reported what he said to them; my son said he probably told them to behave.

One state in New England has a new law which makes it a felony for a man to LOOK at a child in a public place.

Many men have reported sitting on a bench in the park, enjoying the outdoors. Up comes a few kids to play and a few minutes later, an adult shows up, who either threatens him, or actually calls the cops on him.

Men have been threatened for taking pictures of their own kids playing in the park.

Yet, many of you want to quibble that maybe, gosh, once in a while there might be an irrational person who might act out.

No, no, a thousand times no. The US is inundated with hatred for all men. Few of you notice it because it has been that way all your life, and you don't notice it.

Yet, any man who dares to even mention how bad it is, is immediately labeled some kind of sicko woman hater.

One state in New England has a new law which makes it a felony for a man to LOOK at a child in a public place.

I live in New England. If this was true, I would have heard about it.

And I was walking all around a kids football game last weekend taking pictures. Nobody said boo. Got some good shots of my friend's kid taking down a running back too!

Although after reading about the shit that goes down in Old England, I'm more than a little paranoid about it.

It's Maine. I found one of the original articles about it, I don't know if it was passed or not...

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080406/NEWS/804060343/-1/NEWS01

And while different from public photos, plenty of parents in the US have been arrested for taking pics of their kids in the bathtub--

http://www.google.co.jp/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=parents+arrested+for+bathtub+pics&btnG=Google+Search

Cousin Dave, you are right about my age, but I'm also a mom of a 15 yr old girl, with friends both older (in college) and younger, so I'm pretty much in touch with the younger female generation, and although it may be worse in other areas, I just don't see that. Feminism isn't even mentioned in their vocabulary, as it was ours. I've never heard my daughter or any of her friends even utter the word.

What I think has changed is that we have become a much more sexualized culture - with rap music, provocative television, and "sexting" - and therefore, both sexes have been rendered free to cheat, but probably boys, even more so, since without any restrictions, boys will generally play the field and not commit to any one girl.

So, I've heard my daughter and her friends ask, "Why are boys this way?". My answer, of course, would involve evolutionary programming, which is not very satisfying to them. I'm sure some of these sweet, innocent girls may one day become embittered like the woman above, but at this point, they are just puzzled. "How can a boy say he loves you one week, then tell another girl the same thing the next?" (my daughter's recent question).

I think it's more the result of an "anything goes" culture for them, not feminism directly. It is lack of ethics and values. Most are the product of divorce, and there's no longer a sense or expectation of monogamy. Many of them have fathers or mothers who've left the family for other people. This naturally effects their view of relationships, often meaning a negative view of the opposite sex.

That is truly my take on things. I just don't feel feminism has as much impact on this generation as you think. They barely know anything about it. It impacts US because we remember how things used to be with men and women - staying married and raising families together. We have that nostalgia and sense that something is wrong, but they have no idea of this or any real political agenda. They just know guys tend to be duplicitious now - telling them one thing, then doing the next. Loving them one minute and someone else tomorrow. They are just trying to figure out relationships in an uncertain climate, and some of them understandably become cynical.

Great response from a guy on Dr. Helen's site:

"When women say like this, I "ham" it up for my own amusement.
Last time some woman made an "all men are pigs" statement in my presence, I oinked at her then winked. This was followed up with a, "You better believe it, baby." Life is too short, and chaos far too amusing for me to be angry with crazy feminists and their ilk, especially when they provide me endless entertainment."

He's right. Life is too short. If you go around looking for opportunities to be offended then you WILL find them.

To the guys on this site: If you were standing in line at, say, a hardware store, and the male clerk made a comment along the lines of "All women are golddiggers," would you angrily correct him? Write a letter to the owners of the store? Consider finding a manager and demanding to get him fired? (Quote from Dr. Helen, in the comments, "The effective route would have been to go to the manager and demanded she be fired.")

I bet you wouldn't and neither would I, but Dr. Helen did. And I stand by my initial opinion: she overreacted.

Angrily? No. But I'd correct him, even though I'm guilty of making the similar statements.

But but just because I like to make people feel small.

'Great response from a guy on Dr. Helen's site'

So then, Shannon, if someone said 'All women are golddiggers' you'd just say 'You better believe it, baby' ?

PS. :-D

Another point.....she spoke to the women. I didn't think that was overreacting. HAVING them fired, yes, CONSIDERING it, no, it doesn't become overreacting until she does it. I don't think speaking to them was overreacting at all.

Perhaps she's as fed up with this crap as Amy is with cell phones. She had an article on her blog a few months ago where she and her husband had a pregnant waitress wait on them when they went out to dinner. Dr H. said something along the lines of 'congratulations' and then 'Do you want a boy or a girl?' and the answer was 'I sure hope a girl, who needs more men in the world?'

What the hell? This attitude really IS common. I was going through Atlanta airport last week. My husband was in front of me. We were both tired from a nice vacation. He dug out his laptop, keys, and cellphone, took off his belt, and went to go through the metal detector when he realized he still had his shoes on.

Rather than hold up the line, he said 'Sorry, Mum'* (to which I answered 'Okay honey') and threw his shoes into my bin with my cell phone, bag etc. I didn't mind but Lordy, the female TSA agent *the next line over* started getting in a huff....'He just threw his shoes in YOUR bin!!? What the hell!!? Men!!' I said 'Hey, we've been together almost thirty years and if that's the worst thing he does....' 'He shouldn't disrespect you like that' she kept mumbling, I gave up on her. That's overreacting, I think ;-)

* 'Gomen, Ka-chan!' DH is Japanese, he calls me Ka-chan, I call him Papa as most Japanese couples do, when we're speaking Japanese.

Just to be sure of my answer to Cousin Dave, I asked my daughter last night if they study feminism in school. She replied (I swear), "What's feminism?" I explained it as best I could, and she said, "No, but we're studying mythology."

Kind of funny, despite showing how poor educational standards (in FL schools) are. My daughter's a top student, so it's not that she's ignorant. But the point is that for this younger generation, feminism is just some historical subject, like mythology, if they know of it at all. These girls were born with equal rights, so it isn't relevant to them.

My daughter has about 6 close girlfriends. Only 2 live in intact families. 1 has divorced parents but sees her dad regularly.

The other 3 girls only live with single moms, and of those 1 has a dad in Cuba that she hasn't seen since she was a toddler. Another girl just seems to have never had a father, and the third was living with her mom and a boyfriend, but the boyfriend just broke up with mom, so they're looking for a new place to live.

If some of these young women have negative impressions of men, it is more likely the result of personal experiences, rather than feminism (at least directly). Those that live with single moms have likely seen males come and go, in and out of their lives. They may have either observed mom be dumped or mistreated, or been dumped and mistreated themselves...or both.

I suspect the girl in the store has never studied feminism. That was a pursuit of women of an earlier era (like when Dave and I were in college). Although it can certainly be argued that the conditions that lead young women today to have negative feelings towards men are an indirect result of feminism, it isn't that modern young women know much about feminism, or consider themselves feminists. You could throw that insult at them and they probably wouldn't know what you were talking about. Many just have little or no exposure to positive male role models, and that's what creates these feelings.

You did suggest that the woman's comments were influenced by feminism, David M. In fact, several people did, directly or indirectly. But this was your quote:

"Young women-like the one in this story - are brainwashed by the feminist mantra that all men are bad.

Because feminism has so heavily infected our universities young women hear this message and think it must be some kind of fact or else why would they learn it in college."

Posted by: lovelysoul at September 30, 2009 1:18 PM
-----------------------
Correct. I said this in the context of Dr. Helen's comment regarding this young woman's comment.
Tell me something positive that feminists say about men?
Tell me feminism is not promoted at our universities.

Crella's anecdote made me think a bit less of Dr. Helen - if you're going around asking strangers nosy and inappropriate questions like "do you want a boy or a girl?", then you don't have much credibility when complaining about the rudeness you get in response.

LS,

So what you are acknowledging, in essence, is that feminism is like a widespread societal poison, but that girls today don't know the name or origin of what is making them sick and ruining relations with the opposite sex. In fact, they don't even know that they are sick, since they don't know what being "well" is like. The toxicity is now insidious and ubiquitous, rather than overt.

Isn't that part of the problem? Don't they need to know what poison is afflicting them, and what they in turn are spreading -- just as with any other social disease? Don't we need to drag feminism, writhing, into the sunlight so that it can be recognized for what it is, and for the harm that it has done, as it dies?

Finally, while I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your comments, I still can't help but be slapped in the face with your unrelentingly negative view of men --"That's just the way they are, after all."

You make me think that maybe misandry just comes naturally to most women, and feminism only exacerbates a "pre-existing condition."

That is a good point CB, however, wouldn't a better response to the question you posed be that one would rather keep that to themselves than spout off a rude generalization?

Tell me something positive that feminists say about men?

hellonhairylegs.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/when-you-say-feminism-is-sexism-against-men/

Some exerts:

The Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog states that “Feminists hate misogyny, not men.“

The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan is published. “Man is not the enemy here, but the fellow victim.”

Also, an interesting article about Men and Feminism:

http://www.bitchmagazine.org/post/six-questions-on-men-and-feminism-for-author-shira-tarrant

Tell me feminism is not promoted at our universities.

Tell me what promoting access to birth control, equal pay for equal work, a reduction in violence against women, and continued alleviation of rigid gender rolls is a bad thing to expose people to in college?

Prove to me that feminism is promoted in college? It is next to impossible to prove a negative.

-Julie

Jay R, I'm not sure you really read all my comments, or at least you seem to ignore any positive ones I make about men.

I don't hate men. I, myself, have a wonderful dad, who has just been here visiting. The fact that I may state the reality that many girls do not have positive males in their lives doesn't make me anti-male at all. How do you even come to that conclusion?

There are a variety of reasons that the situation exists. You can certainly blame feminism for part of it, but not all of it. Many women, such as myself, are able to have better relationships - and a vastly more positive impression of men - because of the freedom of choice that we now enjoy. If a man doesn't treat us well, we have been able to find another who does. That is a wonderful thing, but also a tough thing.

Also, feminism didn't invent negative opinions of men. My father was just telling me about his current lady friend, and how she was molested and abused for years by her father. He suspects she even has a dissociative disorder because of it. She's 78. I doubt her opinion of men is very positive, but hopefully, being around my dad's gentle kindness will help her.

All any of us can do is try to be the positive role models for those who are hurt or embittered, counterracting the negative impressions that others of our gender may leave. To pretend those negatives don't exist is foolish.

Prove to me that feminism is promoted in college? It is next to impossible to prove a negative.

-Julie
-----------------------------
http://townhall.com/content/416ce642-9d10-49dd-a257-4f442de60039

Tell me something positive that feminists say about men?

hellonhairylegs.wordpress.com/2009/02/14/when-you-say-feminism-is-sexism-against-men/

Some exerts:

The Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog states that “Feminists hate misogyny, not men.“

The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan is published. “Man is not the enemy here, but the fellow victim.”
================================
These don't say anything positive about men.
I'm talking about being appreciative of men in general. Such as- Thanks for sacrificing you lives so I'm not ruled by Germans Japenese or Muslims. Thanks for the dwelling I live in that has heat/AC, hot and cold running water. Thanks for the computers I use to make my life easier, thanks for my car, my opportunities in a free country etc... Thanks for growing my food that we have in abundance.
That is something positive. Not man is not the enemy here. If I tell a guy he is not the enemy- he is going to say the enemy of what?

Seriously David M? Your only proof that feminism is being crammed down the throats of everyone and that it is a universal plague upon our colleges is a mediocre article without any citations written by someone whose only professional criteria is that she's married with kids? By that standard, you should believe everything that Michele Obama says without question.

Um, you are going to have to do better than that. Seriously, you might as well give the excuse "Because I said so".

-Julie

Thanks for sacrificing you lives so I'm not ruled by Germans Japenese or Muslims.

Women served in all of those wars, and they were all VOLUNTEERS. The men were drafted (until recently)Why aren't you thanking me for that?

Thanks for the dwelling I live in that has heat/AC, hot and cold running water.

I pay for the dwelling that I live in and have personally run lines for electricity, plumbing, and fix our heat/ac on a regular basis when it has problems.

Thanks for the computers I use to make my life easier

I support computers for a living and had a personal hand in getting the financial district back up and running after 9/11, did you thank me?

thanks for my car

Which I bought and both men and women designed.

my opportunities

Which I created for myself and sacrificed to move them forward.

in a free country

Again, protected by men and women.

Why do you think that you should get credit for bringing these things to my life when you've not had a personal hand in any of it? Did you design my car? Pay my electric bill? Defend my freedoms? I thank the people who have a direct hand in providing those blessings in my life. You don't get my appreciation simply because you have a penis, just like I don't get your simply because I have a vagina.

-Julie

Also, I don't see how it's feminism's job to make sure men feel all warm and fuzzy and validated. I don't expect people fighting for gay marriage to reinforce my heterosexuality. I don't need that from them.

I don't expect people fighting for gay marriage to reinforce my heterosexuality.

This reminds me of one of my favorite sayings, "Fighting for Peace is like fucking for virginity"

:-)

-Julie

"Crella's anecdote made me think a bit less of Dr. Helen"

Well that's kind of nutty.....I can't reproduce a months-ago blog post verbatim, and can't find it...but it was typical chit-chat with a pregnant woman, she didn't ask her as soon as she walked up to take their order...it could have been 'do you know if it's a boy or a girl' or 'do you want a boy or a girl', the point was the woman's answer....if you received the same answer you'd be okay with it?

What I don't get is why is it feminist's obligation to "thank" men? This is a movement dedicated to women and their needs. That is their mandate and their focus. If you guys feel you need a bigger influence politically and more respect socially, then form your own groups! It's not the job of feminism to do that for you. They are a women's organization.

It's kind of like pacifists lobbying the American Legion to support and thank them. Hey, it's not their goal or reason for forming. I guess the NAACP helps whites sometimes too, but their main focus is discrimination against blacks. Should we ask them to thank whites for all the inventions of white people that blacks enjoy? I don't think that would go over any better, for obvious reasons.

Julie makes great points, as usual. Women don't owe men gratitude for doing things that we were largely prohibited from doing ourselves for much of history...and now, we can.

Women owe men gratitude for being caring, decent men. And, believe me, we do feel grateful to have men like that in our lives. But, beyond that, we do not owe you this grand dept of gratitude. Throughout history, women have made just as many sacrifices, if not more, for the sake of men.

Seriously David M? Your only proof that feminism is being crammed down the throats of everyone and that it is a universal plague upon our colleges is a mediocre article without any citations written by someone whose only professional criteria is that she's married with kids? By that standard, you should believe everything that Michele Obama says without question.
=============================
Sorry if that's not good enough for you. I
doubt anything would be judging by your attitude.
Don't forget I cited the two books by Warren Farrell, and the books by Kathleen Parker -Save The Males and Christina Hoff Sommers- The War against Boys. All have references. Since you wanted to so easily dismiss the article I cited. Seriously Julie?

This reminds me of one of my favorite sayings, "Fighting for Peace is like fucking for virginity"

:-)

-Julie

Posted by: Julie at October 1, 2009 1:42 PM
=================================
I think you are blissfully unaware that if people had not fought for peace- you would not have the freedoms you now enjoy.

Why do you think that you should get credit for bringing these things to my life when you've not had a personal hand in any of it? Did you design my car? Pay my electric bill? Defend my freedoms? I thank the people who have a direct hand in providing those blessings in my life. You don't get my appreciation simply because you have a penis, just like I don't get your simply because I have a vagina.

-Julie

Posted by: Julie at October 1, 2009 1:02 PM
================================
Sounds like I hit your feminist button.

What I said was there is no appreciation by feminists for things that men have provided that have given them a very comfortable lifestyle. It also seemed very difficult for you to acknowledge this.

And yes. I did defend your freedom and your welcome.

Well, like I said, David M, why not make blacks thank whites for all the comforts of life they now enjoy that were invented while they were working the fields? That's a little absurd, don't you think?

You can't expect a group of people who were disenfranchised for hundreds of years to "thank" others for doing what they weren't even given the chance to do.

And, besides, you guys tend to confuse all women with "feminists". You use the term interchangeably, as if we're all card-carrying members of NOW, when very few of us are. Nor did many of us have "feminist studies". Most of us didn't attend ivy league schools, where those types of liberal studies are rampant.

Besides, the average waitress or cashier probably didn't even attend college, so to take every joke or negative comment one might make towards men as the direct result of her "feminism" is silly.

There are many WOMEN who are supportive and grateful for the sacrifices men in the armed forces have made. There are many WOMEN who properly laud men for their inventions that help all mankind.

But feminism is a group focused on helping women, politically and socially. It's not their job to go around thanking men, even if that were appropriate.

There are many WOMEN who are supportive and grateful for the sacrifices men in the armed forces have made. There are many WOMEN who properly laud men for their inventions that help all mankind.

But feminism is a group focused on helping women, politically and socially. It's not their job to go around thanking men, even if that were appropriate.

Posted by: lovelysoul at October 2, 2009 8:09 AM
==========================
This I can agree to and is a very appropriate comment.
My whole point as a male is that I agree with Dr. Helen, there is way too much man bashing that I see and have personally experienced and never any appreciation. Thanks for this part of your last comment.

You can't expect a group of people who were disenfranchised for hundreds of years to "thank" others for doing what they weren't even given the chance to do.

And, besides, you guys tend to confuse all women with "feminists". You use the term interchangeably, as if we're all card-carrying members of NOW, when very few of us are. Nor did many of us have "feminist studies". Most of us didn't attend ivy league schools, where those types of liberal studies are rampant.

Besides, the average waitress or cashier probably didn't even attend college, so to take every joke or negative comment one might make towards men as the direct result of her "feminism" is silly.
Posted by: lovelysoul at October 2, 2009 8:09 AM
==============================
These parts of your comments are a little off base.
I personally have never held any woman back from doing what she wanted to do. So I feel like today's women are discriminating against myself and today's men for things we had no part in. I've never "disenfranchised" anyone.

I don't "confuse all women with feminists."
I know great women and I know of a lot of great women.I have three bright, great sisters and the smartest person I have ever met that I personally know is a female friend of mine.
Feminism is a part of our politically correct culture whereby the media portray a signifigant portion of men and boys out to be dundering fools part of the time and oppressors at other times. The waitress doesn't have to take a course in feminism to pick up this attitude. It is pervasive in our society from television to everyday comments like the one cited by Dr. Helen.

David M, I agree with you about the media, especially TV show that depict men as bluthering idiots. I hate that too.

However, I think a lot of that has more to do with sheer marketing than feminism. These writers know women are the primary viewers of sitcoms, so they're trying to appeal to/not offend that audience. Plus, there's a greater sensitivity about offending women, just as there are blacks or any previously oppressed group. Some jokes just wouldn't be funny if directed at women. It would seem mean, whereas guys are seen as strong enough to take being the butt of jokes. A show about a guy bossing around his wife would hit too close to domestic abuse, not humor. But a show with a nagging/bossy wife just seems...normal. lol

And, as far as Doctor Helen, I don't know her, obviously, but it seems a little questionable to me how she keeps getting into these male bashing situations - from cashiers to waitresses. I especially find the pregnant waitress's response rings false to me. I have never heard a pregnant woman say anything like that about her possible unborn baby, which could be male or female. It just seems suspicious to me. I can go all day long, for weeks on end, running errands, without hearing any male bashing. Either she lives in an extraordinarily hostile community or she's making some of this stuff up for convenience.

"Well, Cousin, I've honestly never heard a woman of my aquaintance say, "Men don't have feelings. Nothing hurts them."

You've never heard a woman tell a man to get tough and be a man, to quit snivelling? You don't go on feminist blogs where any reference to anything bad happening to men is called "whining"? You don't hear women calling men "pussies" and other demeaning, feminizing names?

"Not to mention there are occassions when a man may regret handling things like a pussy."

Hypocrite much, LS?

"Also, feminism didn't invent negative opinions of men."

Indeed. It just inherited and benefited and expanded on them. It's a very old feature of Anglo culture - the AngloBitch (I don't approve of the term - it ought to be AngloPrincess)- that feminism cynically co-opted. Sold its soul for to further an agenda.

http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=21df958a3f5e70771a624332914bd3cc&topic=18060.0

There's a big difference between calling a guy a pussy, when he's being one, and saying "men don't have feelings". No female friend of mine has ever maintained men don't have feelings or can't be hurt. That's stupid. Most of us have sons. We know you have feelings and can be hurt.

I don't go to feminist blogs, so I have no idea what they talk about. I don't go to skinhead/white supremist blogs either. I'm sure I wouldn't like or agree with much that they say, and it would probably just depress me or make me cynical about the human race.

Why do you guys go to feminist blogs? Seems to me it gives you a very distorted view of women. Most of what is credited to us normal women here seems to come from something that you guys have read on those blogs. You read that slanted crap, then come over here and accuse us of feeling that way when it isn't true.

I have a son, and I expect him to behave decently towards girls, just as I expect my daughter to behave decently towards boys. If my son were to dump a girl callously - not call or let her down nicely - I would probably say he was being a coward, rather than saying he's a "pussy" - but the message is really the same. I would tell him to be a gentleman and do the right thing.

That is really warped thinking, Jim - the whole "anglobitch" link. It saddens me that some of you will become so radical and lose touch with reality. I know you are probably thoroughly convinced that it's truth, just as anyone lost in radical dogma is, but you really need to step back and get a grip.

"You can't expect a group of people who were disenfranchised for hundreds of years to "thank" others for doing what they weren't even given the chance to do. "

EVERYBODY, men and women, was disenfranchised for centuries and centuries and centuries. Maybe not all women are feminists, but the ones that repeat feminsts lies are, and the notion that all men had power and no women did iss one fo feminism's biggest lies.

"But feminism is a group focused on helping women, politically and socially. "

Another of feminism's lies is that feminism is men's best chance to remedy the sexual discrimination men face. That's two strikes on you now.

"I can go all day long, for weeks on end, running errands, without hearing any male bashing. "

Like white people can go a lifetiem never seeing any racism. Big surprise. Part of it may be that you don't really consider these comments man-bashing, or out of line at all.

I don't live in isolated enclave, Jim, but I rarely hear any male-bashing except sometimes when a girlfriend might be going through a bad breakup. I certainly don't hear it randomly from clerks and waitresses. It seems pretty odd to me that a waitress would start male-bashing in a restaurant that presumable has men there too. But, fine, maybe it happened to Dr. Helen, but it sure doesn't happen to me on a regular basis.

And this whole "everyone was disenfranchised" is a big lie and subterfuge to gloss over the very real lack of rights that women suffered.

I'm sure life is no picnic for most of the Islamic world either. But it sure is good for SOME, and that lucky percentage is exclusively MEN, not women. You could say, "Oh, well, men are having to ride around on camels and live in huts in squalor too. So what? That doesn't mitigate the fact that females have comparatively no rights in their system compared to men. No more than the fact that many people lived in poverty in our country changes the basic inequity that existed between males and females. The power was all in male hands. Doesn't mean everyone had that power, but the ones who did were almost exclusively male.

This "everyone suffered" is a beautiful little subterfuge. You could apply it to almost any loss of human rights anywhere. You could apply to slavery. Many slave owners were barely better off than their slaves. Many worked the fields along with them. But that doesn't make slavery RIGHT!

Look, you're reading feminist garbage and stoking the fires of your anger and radical leanings. It isn't healthy, and it isn't representative of the majority of women. You've lost perspective.

And yes. I did defend your freedom and your welcome.

And I defended your freedom in the Army. You are most welcome too!

-Julie

Like white people can go a lifetiem never seeing any racism.

A white person might not experience racism, but that doesn't mean that a white person is inherently racist. You are throwing rocks at women who are on your side of the fight. NO one here advocates men not received equal rights to their children. NO one here assumes that women should be the sole care givers. No woman here truly believes that all men are rapists or that our children need to be protected from a friendly hello. You are taking people who are members of fringe groups and applying their behavior to people who are proud of who they are and where they came from. It is the equivalent of quoting the KKK to argue with someone who wears a 'Kiss my I'm Irish' t-shirt.

Most women (and I would say most feminists) don't believe that men are the enemy. You might see that if you quit swinging verbal baseball bats at our heads.

-Julie

Just some clarification LS. You've said that some of the slave owners wheren't much better than the slaves they owned, which, may or may not be true, I for one cannot vouch either way. However, some have posted about how both men and women had things hard in the past, but you've discussed how women didn't have a lot of rights.

I agree that things in the past where rough, this arguement had been brought up before on another of Amy's blogs, just looking for some clarification on this and I do not mean this in a sacrcastic or mean way.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, Amax, but my great-grandparents (or maybe great great) had slaves, but they were never rich. As I've heard stories passed down, they worked the fields too. In the area I'm from in the deep south, there were few big, fancy plantations like you see depicted in movies. People had slaves to help them farm and pick cotton. Life was hard for everyone. Nobody had a lot, but certainly, the slave owners were better off than the slaves, who had no choice whatsoever in shaping their own destinies - not even able to dream of changing their lives, or to have a voice. If they were lucky, they were treated well, sometimes even like family, but many were not.

Likewise, I'm sure many women were fortunate to be treated well by the males in their lives, but that doesn't mitigate the fact that, as a class, they were disenfranchised, denied the same basic rights, privileges, and opportunities that men had. The rights and freedoms given to the class as whole is what matters, not whether every individual took full advantage of those rights and freedoms. That isn't even true today.

And I defended your freedom in the Army. You are most welcome too!

-Julie

Posted by: Julie at October 2, 2009 1:07 PM

What unit were you in?

"And this whole "everyone was disenfranchised" is a big lie and subterfuge to gloss over the very real lack of rights that women suffered. "

It's exactly the other way around. The big lie is that women were uniquely denied rights. This is of a piece with that racist piece of shit Susan B. Anthony whining that black men, who had actually fought for these rights, as in risking their lives as opposed to marching on an afternoon with all the other society babes, were getting the vote they had fought for before white women were GIVEN that right...oh, the HORROR!!

Women suffered very real lack of rights. That did not include being drafted into wars they had no vote on, as happened with the majority of men in England conscripted for WWI, while some waste-of-cum civilian female was handing white feathers to men to shame them into enlisting, something they themselves would never be called on to do. So go sell it somewhere down the street about how women have been UNIQUELY down-trodden.

"Look, you're reading feminist garbage and stoking the fires of your anger and radical leanings. It isn't healthy, and it isn't representative of the majority of women. You've lost perspective."

This isn't feminist garbage, this is the standard advantages and priveleges that women in this society enjoy and then lie about.

"A white person might not experience racism, but that doesn't mean that a white person is inherently racist. "

True, Julie - just unaware, ignorant or intentionally blind.

Thank you for answering LS, I apologize for the vagueness of my question. Well, I wondered mainly because times in those days where tough, apparently on everybody. Although I had never considered every plantation or farm ownder to be rich, or even the working rich, it doesn't surprise me that some where just scraping by as you had described.

That seems to me to be the point others are making. Yes it must have been frustrating not to be able to vote, or own things as women in those days must have done, and that there where indeed men who took advantage of this fact, but could there not be some men who didn't take advantage of this situation? Did they continue this situation on purpose, or did some of them simply do what they did with what they had? Wheren't there some men out there who realized that because of the status quo, they had to bust their butts because if something happened to them, what would then become of their wives, families? I wonder what some of the men with dangerous jobs like mining and the like had thought when a cave in occured and they lost a compadre. Everyday they went to work could be their last, but they had to feed their families right? If they didn't, who would?

Was it men who oppressed women, or was it the time they lived in? If slavery was simply a rough time for everyone involved as you had stated earlier, then how are the others who had stated the same thing between men and women in those days incorrect? Where your great-grand parents bad people, or was it just "the way it was"?

This is just an assumption, but I wonder if what some of the others who are posting here are simply saying that the idea of bashing men is very widespread. Sure we have feminazi's who give feminist's a bad name for sure, but it seems to me that one doesn't have to be part of that sub group to make statements like the one this cashier made.

"And I defended your freedom in the Army."

Bit of an aside but I will say this, I'm from Canada but in my younger years I was taught that freedom isn't free, and the reason why I can do everything that I do now is due to the sacrifice people I don't even know have made, and continue to make.

I can remember a time when people would take their basebal hats when around the flag (even if it was the Maple Leaf) and it somewhat saddens me that no one seems to care about this any longer.

Amax, thank you for a thoughtful, civil response. Yes, of course, many men sought to take care of their families, and life was hard and opportunities limited for most people, as it still is, today, for many poor people. Immigrants come here, and if they're lucky, they are "adopted" by a sympathetic family, who supports them in becoming citizens and realizing all their potential. We have no idea what that potential is, but at least in this country, everyone is theoretically free to pursue their talents and dreams.

The sad truth about America is that most do not reach their potential. Yet, the redeeming quality of America is that we give EVERYONE the opportunity. It may be hard. It may seem impossible. But if someone, male or female, has a special talent or passion, he or she can pursue their dreams...often to failure, but sometimes, to greatness.

And that possibility was denied most women until the women's rights movement. It was given, by birth, to men. The fact that many men did not achieve anything great, and struggled through hard lives, is really just the odds, and the result of the human condition. But men had the chance, theoretically and practically, to achieve ANYTHING. If they were gifted in science, math, or the arts, and could break away from family expectations, they could pursue their dreams and talents. This was not true for women...or for slaves.

How many talented, intelligent people were lost due to discrimination and oppression? We'll never know, and certainly, it still happens today. Poverty inhibits many great minds from achieving all that is possible, their full potential. But at least it is possible in America. And that is all government can give to its citizens - the possibility and the opportunity to achieve. This chance was denied women, as a class, for many generations, which wasn't fair.

This chance was denied women, as a class, for many generations, which wasn't fair.

I will give specific examples. Women were denied the ability to get an education, live on their own, control their own bodies (It wasn't until the mid 1990s that laws were updated to allow for the prosecution of rape within a marriage. It was assumed that if a woman married someone she consented to sex at any time), birth control was illegal in many places even through the seventies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut).

I have an aunt who was told that she has two options in college, she could teach or she could become a nurse. That was it for educated women. My grandmother started taking college classes in the 90s. I can remember receiving a letter from her that almost beamed off of the page because the community college let her enroll FOR CREDIT without any issue. :-D It made me proud to know that she had options that she'd never had before. Did that make my grandfather a bad man? No, as a matter of fact, he drove her to class each day because she was afraid to drive herself. They were both good people, but one was not allowed the same options as the other.

Institutional denial of franchise was rampant before the women's rights movement. Does that mean all men were awful before then? No of course not, just like all white people weren't awful to black people before the civil rights movement. However, when the laws and customs are in place to keep you from having the ability to even attempt to achieve your potential, people being kind hearted about it doesn't really help.

I also know that my examples are anecdotal, but I bet each woman here could provide additional examples as well.

-Julie

"And I defended your freedom in the Army. You are most welcome too!

-Julie"

Sorry Julie. But women who serve in the military are given the same pay and benefits as men, even though they are not required to conform to the same standards of physical fitness and have more options for getting out of combat duties.

Those who demand equal outcomes in exchange for unequal contributions are not brave freedom-fighters. Instead, they are taking us further down the road to socialist tyranny.

Those who demand equal outcomes in exchange for unequal contributions are not brave freedom-fighters. Instead, they are taking us further down the road to socialist tyranny.

ROFLOL, you are so fucking funny!

Apparently you don't understand that military pay is based upon rank, family size, and and current location assignment (combat pay when you are deployed, separation pay when you are required to be away from your spouse by a distance greater than 50 miles, etc). It is the military that refuses to allow women into combat ranks, and men who are in the same job classification as women have the exact same job requirements. Also, the physical requirements are different between men and women, but don't always favor the women. When I was in, women were required to do more sit-ups than men. Also, in the Air Force men and women were required to show the same level of physical fitness based upon a series of medical tests done while exercising, eliminating the difference between men's and women's requirements (and also eliminating the ability to 'grunt through' without consistent PT).

-Julie

Whether or not women suffered isn't in question, there is nothing to prove as I agree that the times left women in some cases at the complete mercy of men which some did indeed take advantage of.

The issue I think is that there are some very real issues at hand right now. Google famouns Feminist quotes and you will see what I mean. Of course there are some very positive quotes made by women which even I would consider empowering. However, check anti-misandry.com. There is a huge slew of quotes made there which are absolutely hateful.

Do guys say some very mysoginist things from time to time? Absolutely, I myself had been told some doozies in the past. However, this isn't a social/political group of men who is allowed to make quotes like this with little or no negative consequences.

There is also another lesser known group which had their own manifesto called SCUM. The Society for Cutting Up Men, where is the associative group that men have? Are their issues which women face even now, absolutely, but let's be honet; if I where at a store and a guy had said "Women are Goldiddgers" to me, I would dismiss him as a loser and figure that he would probably lose his job in pretty short order once he said it to the wrong person. Men aren't really allowed to say anything like that in public and as you have seen in other situations, would be crucified in short order.

I wonder if Earth Fare would have gone to the lengths they did if Dr. Helen was male? This is simply the issue that men face, and I guess what some of the guys are trying to say here is to simply recognize it, not dismiss it or speak about the attrocities of the past which may suggest to some to be a justification for this present behavior.

The whole idea that there is an established group which is allowed this hateful speach against part of our population or pushes for lopsided social norms should have us all concerned. I am all for equality, but we all know that some women do not have to take responsibility for their actions as society will take up for them be they right or wrong.

Two wrongs do not make a right, yeah?

"A white person might not experience racism, but that doesn't mean that a white person is inherently racist. "

True, Julie - just unaware, ignorant or intentionally blind.

@Jim...Notice that I said "experience" not "witness". Those are two totally different things. Just because a white person has never been discriminated against based upon their race doesn't mean that they've never witnessed bigotry or don't believe that it exists.

However, check anti-misandry.com. There is a huge slew of quotes made there which are absolutely hateful.

The url didn't come up, it gave a 404 error. Amax, I believe that you are attempting to mediate this issue and speak rationally and understand that we are attempting the same. I appreciate that.

Do guys say some very mysoginist things from time to time? Absolutely, I myself had been told some doozies in the past. However, this isn't a social/political group of men who is allowed to make quotes like this with little or no negative consequences.

I'm interested in attempting to look at this objectively. Can you find me a single misandrist quote from http://www.now.org/ ? I'm interested in a single quote, complete with the URL for confirmation that says anything along the lines of 'men are awful'. anti-misandrists are often saying that NOW is to blame for their problems, I'm interested in seeing if y'all can substantiate that.

Two wrongs do not make a right, yeah?

And no one here is saying that. All that we are saying is that feminism is a scape goat around here. If you want to stand up to bigotry, I will stand beside you in that fight, whether it is for an ethnicity, sexual orientation, sex, or other discriminated group. However, when y'all blame feminism for all of your problems, you just sound like people who've found another way to attempt to drag women down, and it doesn't help your cause. Especially since women here are rather self selecting and are open to creating equality for everyone.

-Julie

Julie,

If, as I believe, you are an equalist, then why are you seemingly so invested in defending feminism -- which at this point is the most severe impediment to gender equality?

Let us criticize feminism here without your scolding and finger-wagging; it is much deserving of criticism. If you are not a feminist, then we are not talking about you. Debunking and dismantling feminism does not constitute an attempt to "drag women down." That sounds just a bit defensive and paranoid, don't you think? Or, do you think that women can never be the subject of legitimate criticism? Do women need a hate movement to support them?

Other reasonable women who post here (including our lovely red-headed hostess herself) are able to differentiate "women" from "feminists." Why aren't you?

In characterizing feminism as a "scapegoat" you seek to diminish and dismiss the personal experiences and observations of many people who post here. What gives you the right to judge, and reject, men's experiences and feelings? Nothing at all. You have been on the receiving end of the goodies, after all, and not at the point of the spear for the last 40 years.

My advice? If you don't want to attract hostility, let go of feminism and stand on your own two feet. You don't need that crutch -- it only keeps women weak and crippled.

I appreciate everyone's calm, civil discussion about this.

I believe I speak for Julie, too, in saying that we do not support hateful comments or rants towards men, whether made by feminists or just angry, embittered women.

My own view, however, is that after 40 years of radical change, some of this is to be expected. I'm not defending feminism, but pragmatically, it is understandable that some women are still angry...just as some blacks are still angry. A revolution occured and some still like to revel in the victory dance.

And it very rare for groups that were once in power, so to speak, to have forums to bash other groups that were less powerful. It is almost always the previously oppressed group that can get away with this. I suppose the exception might be white supremists, but they are not widely supported by society.

So, the fact that men can't get away with bashing women as easily as the reverse is also to be expected in the natural progression that follows a social revolution.

I'm just trying to explain my view and why I don't get as alarmed or upset as maybe you would like me to be. In my opinion, these are not signs of things to come but rather signs of things that have been. Whereas many of you guys take them as signs that things are going to get worse between genders, I don't believe that is true.

I think feminism is dying. Its mission has been accomplished. That is why you see pockets of extreme anger in certain places, which usually occurs when a movement is dying. The radical fighters are trying desperately to hold on to the battle as long as possible, and the more they sense they're losing, the angrier they'll become.

The internet has just made these pockets more accessible, so it seems to some of you that this is a broad and growing threat. It isn't.

Most young women do not identify with feminism. Does this mean they all love men? No, of course not. But feminism, as an organized movement, is over. The next generation is not going to embrace it or carry it forward. They have no need. Feminism is irrelevant to them because they have grown up with equal opportunities.

So, ignore the feminist, misandry-spewing blogs. It is just the last, desperate gasp of a movement that has lost its relevancy. Feminism is dying. They know it. That's why they're mad.

I appreciate this dialogue myself, possibly if men and women where to have more of these a meeting of the minds could be reached. Sadly it seems that this is the exception and not the rule which only seems to keep men and women at odds, never to have a resolution.

I had some issues with that URL myself and am doing my best to fix it at the moment. The main issue is that there are some things which men can't do or say just as easily as women can, that is the issue some of the guys here mean. Yes there was a revolution, yes some people are still angry, but some of the issues ar hand are a little out of context, maybe only im my opinion but some things are a little harsh.

You may not see those quotes on NOW.org Julie, but google Andrea Dworkin's quotes. Or perhaps Catherine MacKinnon, Robin Morgan, and Valarie Solanas(sp?). Please tell me exactly what would happen if there was a SCUF manifesto? A Society for Cutting Up Women, what do you think would be the result of that?

Here is a link, I hope it works;

http://antimisandry.com/feminist-misandry/feminist-quotes-20106.html

Just as another poster had said in that thread, how would a person feel if those statemets where publicly made about them? How would one feel about associating with a man who identified themselves with a national group who believed such things. More often then not, where a man to make statements such as these, both men and women alike would rally against him, yet it seems to be acceptable for people to say such hateful things about men.

I recognize that us black people created the "Black Panthers" as a protective measure in the past, but that movement has since been defunct since 1976. Robin Morgan, one of the women who is quoted a few times on that site, still works for Ms. Magazine in some capacity and from her position could indeed continue to shape the media which reaches women in North America. Sort of adds credence to the point another poster made about how misandry can indeed be found in the media without being labelled as such.

Consider this; I'm not sure if MaCleans magazine gets any circulation in America, but I had read an article a few years ago based on the life of Adrien Grenier, and how he grew up fatherless yet still came grew up and became successful regardless. Not really a bad message in and of itself, until you read more and realize that the author was trying to state that fathers aren't as necessary to the family unit to begin with.

Apparently there was one study quoted in the article which was vague in it's origin and where it was even completed which stated that a child was better off with just the mother than with a mother and a father. We all know that if the father is abusive, this conclusion holds true, but that was never mentioned in the article.

Another question, ever read or even hear about even on article which stated that "Mommy was useless"? Sure we can ignore the hate-filled blogs which feminists have online, but the point is that the attitude seems somewhat prevalent in a scaled down form. Is that form of feminism dying? possibly, but from the posts of the gentleman here it may not be as you seem.

It occured to me that as a man I may not recognize some of the societal pressures on appearance that is placed on women, or other pressures for that matter, could it be that it may be hard to see some of the issues misandry still has in place today as a woman?
One may also say that racism is on the wane and is dying. This is true in a way, but as a black man in North America I can also tell you that it isn't gone by any stretch of the imagination.

Amax,

You are rockin', dude!

Keep it coming.

Amax, you make some very good points. I'm sure there are things that I, as a woman, don't notice or am not as sensitive to. I am in no way suggesting that misandry doesn't exist. Obviously, just like racism, it still does, but, like racism, it is slowly becoming less acceptable.

I just read a good article on Slate.com regarding false rape claims, which we've often discussed here, and the writer was very balanced in stating the male activists' side of the argument too.

Just as with black activism, the MRAs were slower to organize and really address the inequities, but that is clearly changing, as is evidenced by the many men who speak out on this site and have helped educate women here, like me, about the imbalance and misandry still occurring.

To a certain degree that isn't going to go away, even as organized feminism loses popularity and dies off. It would be impractical to expect that. The KKK, for instance, is essentially dead and powerless, but they still exist. You can find that kind of hate spewed all over the internet if you look for it.

So, that is my point. Is there anything productive about looking for it? Does it serve any real purpose except to stoke the natural anger that one would feel reading such one-sided, radical views about one's own gender or race?

If you, as a black man, immersed yourself in the blogs and websites dedicated to the prejudice against your race, wouldn't your view of things be effected negatively. Wouldn't you start to suspect that those views were shared by more people than they actually are? Wouldn't you start to believe that all white people harbor hatred towards you?

This is what concerns me. I feel the men here who go to feminist-oriented sites like "feministing" (which I only heard about by coming here) and read hateful blog entries get a very distorted view of the truth. It causes them not to see any of the progress that has been made, just as you might feel you were back in 1950 if you went to a KKK site.

These sites, and these radical feminists, don't speak for me or most women. They have freedom of speech like anyone else, but that doesn't mean that their views are shared by the majority of women.

And it is also important to separate cause and effect. Many people believe children need mothers more than fathers. This is an OLD belief. In fact, if you'd gotten divorced 50 or 100 years ago, it would've been immediately presumed that the children would go to the mother rather than the father.

Feminism didn't INVENT that bias. They just like it. That's an important distinction.

If, as I believe, you are an equalist, then why are you seemingly so invested in defending feminism -- which at this point is the most severe impediment to gender equality?

You are correct, I am a militant equalist, however I can be an equalist and also recognize that feminism made wonderful strides in this country, is continuing to make wonderful strides around the world, and that there are still battles that need to be won that feminism is fighting. Two primary examples are the fights for birth control and abortion rights. I don't see any men's organizations fighting to keep these rights available, and they really are currently under attack. Should men be concerned about one's ability to access effective long term birth control? yes they should. Have I ever met a men's organisation willing to stand up and be heard about it? Nope. I also don't see men's organizations attempting to objectively looking at the pay differential between men and women. Frankly everyone argues about whether it exists, but no one is willing to admit that it exists and attempt to do something about it.(1)

I start arguing when people here start claiming that women had all the options in the world 60 years ago and feminism had no purpose but to screw things up.

do you think that women can never be the subject of legitimate criticism?

I have no problem with legitimate criticism. What I take issue with is ranting about the horrors brought upon us by feminists when a generation or two ago I wouldn't have been allowed to get a degree, let alone have a career. I wouldn't have had the option of receiving birth control, have sex before marriage without severe consequences. Divorce wasn't a real option and since women had no real way of supporting themselves, a woman who realized that she was in a bad marriage didn't have any real option to get out. Those are all great advances for everyone.

If you don't want to attract hostility, let go of feminism and stand on your own two feet.

I stand on my own feet everyday, and I am able to recognize that not all of the feminist battles are won. As an example, many men here see the problem of women being given custody of children by default as an anti-misandry issue. However, is it possible that most women are given custody because of old beliefs that the children belong with their mother? If that is the case, then it is an issue that should be taken up by both anti-misandrists and feminists, right? One of the primary feminist stands is that men should participate to a greater level in childcare.

Also, why should my belief in feminism and being an equalist attract hostility? What about the position as I have outlined it here justifies hostility? At worst I give y'all an eye roll when I think you are going overboard...

-Julie

(1)I firmly believe that there is a pay differential and believe that it is primarily caused by women leaving the workforce to raise children. My question is why aren't more men willing (or able/allowed) to take such an active role in the day to day raising of their children and why isn't anyone doing anything about it?

It occured to me that as a man I may not recognize some of the societal pressures on appearance that is placed on women, or other pressures for that matter, could it be that it may be hard to see some of the issues misandry still has in place today as a woman?
One may also say that racism is on the wane and is dying. This is true in a way, but as a black man in North America I can also tell you that it isn't gone by any stretch of the imagination.

I've never said that misandry doesn't exist, just like I can't say that racism doesn't exist and misogynism doesn't exist. What I am saying is that there are millions of women who identify as feminist that would no more tolerate the mistreatment of men than they would cut off their right hand. I am one of those women. Most of the battles are won, but we still have a few to go, and they require much more of a soft hand and a thoughtful reaction. You can't change the hyper-sexualization of young girls by marching to the capital. You can't fix the pay differential by burning bras. The complexity of the solutions don't mean that there isn't a problem.

So, that is my point. Is there anything productive about looking for it? Does it serve any real purpose except to stoke the natural anger that one would feel reading such one-sided, radical views about one's own gender or race?
These sites, and these radical feminists, don't speak for me or most women. They have freedom of speech like anyone else, but that doesn't mean that their views are shared by the majority of women.

Or the majority of feminists

And it is also important to separate cause and effect. Many people believe children need mothers more than fathers. This is an OLD belief. In fact, if you'd gotten divorced 50 or 100 years ago, it would've been immediately presumed that the children would go to the mother rather than the father.
Feminism didn't INVENT that bias. They just like it. That's an important distinction.

I don't even know that the average feminist likes that bias. One of the primary tenents of feminism has always been to encourage men to take over half of the child-rearing duties. Men should be an equal part in their children's lives. It is silly to think that it should be any other way.

-Julie

This is a book, you have been warned;

I hear what you are saying, and yes I did have to search those quotes out to find them, to be sure. Are these extremist views, to be sure they are, does it mean that all women or even all feminists feel like this, probably not, Feminism didn’t invent that bias, which is a good point, but they do feed of it and they exacerbate it. This is what I mean, how is it okay for women to group together and make such hateful remarks? Why is it necessary for it, why is it acceptable? Many times on this very site Amy has tabled some statistics which have shown some Feminist stats to be outright lies, fabrications to what end? TO vilify men and this doesn’t bother anyone? A group of people fabricating issues which paint men in a bad light, changing how the media looks at them and this is also acceptable? What does that state about their position, when some groups are not above lying to make change, a change which benefits one set yet is a detriment to another?

Propaganda has been used for years to alter the thinking of certain people, when we think of propaganda, we of course think of Hitler, or Stalin. We in North America did the same thing; vilify the “commies” and the like. I can still remember a black and white video of Bugs Bunny handing out bombs and the like to little kids from across the pond as a ‘joke’. Not politically correct, but at the time light hearted fun…I guess. Well, why the lies now? What do they hope to prove at this point? You had stated that Feminism is no longer necessary, then why is this attitude so prevalent?

Was it the past, was it because women didn’t have many rights years ago? It was horrible to live in those times no doubt, but what good does it do to reap suffering on others? Of course it would be ill-advised to go to racist sites for information, but these issues of Misandry sometimes come to people. Dr. Helen wasn’t looking for it, it found her. This is what I mean; I come across more issues of male bashing more than I come across issues of racism, maybe it’s because of where I live, but what does that say? Sure on one hand you have these extremists ranting hateful speech, granted, keep in mind that there where many who believed that speech in those days, and some which still do even now, something to think about. I guess what I’m asking you is to put it all together and think about what that picture looks like.

If you had followed the link I provided, you would have come across a pretty hateful quote which was in a NOW newsletter in 1988 or so, sure this was a long time ago, but here we have a National Group promoting hate and division of the sexes, which people listen to. You have the Feminist movement which in and of itself is not a bad thing yet moving along down the line you have movies, television, radio, all stating things which may not get people’s attention as they aren’t so extreme, but think about it. I read years ago in my Sister’s teen magazine a quiz about whether or not your boyfriend is treating you well. I took the very lame test which had three questions each, a) the bf was an ass, b) where he was decent, and c) where the bf was getting treated horribly by the reader.

The result; if you had mostly A’s, get rid of him, he’s a jerk, B’s, good stuff, he’s a keeper, C’s, then he is treating you so badly that you are obviously giving it right back to him. And who vilified men? Where did this start?

My wife was watching an episode of the OC where one character had asked a girl he was seeing if she was pregnant. They where going to a Rave or something in the dessert in his roommate’s car and she had been caught with a Pregnancy Test. After he asked her if she was, she FLIPPED, got snapped at him, angry that he even asked (which I could possibly see as it was none of his business), took the roommate’s car and left him AND the roommate out in the middle of the dessert and when they found her later, she was drunk, upset that he had thought she was a slut. Is that sort of behavior acceptable? So if a guy asks a woman something she finds offensive she is allowed to go off the deep end act irrational?

I can go on and on with this sort of thing, all one has to do is turn on the television and it comes to you. I’m sure there are issues which I’m ignorant of for reasons that I stated before, but as I said about some of those quotes, imagine what your husband thinks when he sees this sort of thing. Imagine what is going through his mind when he hears about a man getting chewed up in the courts because someone pointing a figure at him for something he didn’t do. Imagine what he thinks people are going to think about him if he is asked to coach a girl’s soccer team? Imagine what is going through his mind when he hears about people getting divorced, or when he sees an acquaintance going through the same thing. Imagine what is going through his mind when he talks about Jon and Kate Plus 8, she is browbeating Jon and yet no one seems to see anything wrong. Yet he knows damn well that if the positions where reversed, the proverbial sh*t would hit the fan. Don’t think this type of thing happens in real life; think again. I watched a mini version of this two years back at the bar I work at part time. A young woman constantly hitting, browbeating, and demeaning her boyfriend in the bar. The bouncers had to kick them both out for the constant abuse that HE was taking. After they got outside, she got mad, that HE got her kicked out of the bar.

Where precisely would this have been allowed if things where reversed?

Infidelity is a good one, if he cheats, karma comes to bite him in the @$$ but if SHE cheats, we have a good man who still loses out and for what? Men see that, and we shake our heads every time, was this created by feminism, perhaps not, but can one tell me that feminism didn’t push to make certain policies this way? There was a time when I was in high school that women got the shaft in divorces. I guess groups like NOW did what they could to make changes, however, instead of things being fairer for women, or even fair to both, it some cases it isn’t and we all know this.

Maybe this wasn’t done on purpose; however, remember you have a prominent radical feminist in a powerful position in a successful magazine. The media shapes our beliefs; my question to you is what does it say? Even after all these things I have said, there are still those who speak about the patriarchy, and how it must be toppled, even though you have men who won’t even take a female neighbour in their car to drop them off to work for fear of what can be done to them.

One of the issues I personally have is this one; name the hardest job in the world? Of course, being a mother. We have everyone from Oprah to Dr Phil stating that piece of info, and I do agree with it. Name the second, I read on this very site (granted it was a long time ago) that the second was step-mother. I’m just a little confused as to how a step mom could be more difficult than a bio dad, but I’ll go along with it. Anyone want to guess what the third and fourth hardest jobs are? Doesn’t anyone seem to care or want to let men know about the contributions they make? That’s what I mean, on top of this fact, you now have articles like the one I had previously stated and in the event of divorce, no matter the reason, and you have the deck stacked against you for old and outdated ideals, women can work as hard as men, but seemingly men cannot provide a living as good as women.

Look at some of those quotes again; there was one about not penalizing false accounts of rape, what do we have at the moment? Maybe the feminist movement isn’t the cause, but if they support any issues which befall men such as the one I mentioned, could it not be possible to hold them a little responsible for the current issues we now find ourselves in?

Here is my impression of North America; that responsibility is key here in this battle of the sexes. Where responsibility is apparently tattooed onto men, meaning if that they ever decide not to be responsible with themselves or their choices, society immediately deems them not men, and therefore not worth time.The issue that I have is that responsibility is more like a hat with women; they seemingly are allowed to remove it at will, with no ill issues as a result. Depending on the situation at hand, political groups will move in on the woman’s behalf, no matter if she was in the right or wrong. The worst assumption in my opinion is the one where a woman only acts out if a man pushes her. This to me is the most damaging attitude out there today.

One more situation, personal story if you will to illustrate my point; I go to message boards often, usually to offer advice or to receive it, been doing it for years now. Not too long ago I had a really bad situation with my wife, not really sure if we where going to make it honestly. After the counselor, getting a few exercises and learning some eye opening things, I still wasn’t sure things where going to survive. I posted my issues online, thinking I would get some interesting responses.

Some where interesting, but one poster came right out and blamed everything on me, saying that I had no right to question my wife on any of the things which I had issue with and that even though I was the one who was unhappy and disconnecting, my wife was obviously much more unhappy and I had my work cut out for me in order to fix it. I sat there and looked at this post and couldn’t believe my eyes. So in essence, my job was to essentially provide my wife and her kids with a better life and shut my mouth when it came to my needs, does that sound familiar to anyone?
I had seen this before on other sites and even here on Amy’s Site. Anyone remember Donut seem unfair? How many posters stated that the LW was the one who let himself go and he should start to work out to get his wife up and running? It took no less than three posters to state that the guy was actually nice; it was his wife with the issue. The biggest point about that; the first defender of the LW was Amy herself, after she posted people should have shut their mouths.

That’s the picture I mean, this is why some of the guys get their backs up at something like that cashier had stated. Put it all together, it doesn’t seem like a very good picture. Feminism doesn’t promote fairness, I’ve read some of Betty Freidan’s quotes, she sounds like a very cool and level headed person, against the issues which placed men and women at odds in the first place, but there are other forms which do not do this, and possibly put more fuel in the fire that is the battle of the sexes. Is feminism the direct cause, probably not, that point does make sense to me. Us men and women will always have our hushed jokes and limericks and the like, things said to blow off steam when pressure builds and a way to commiserate when we are among the same gender, and in private places where no one really gets hurt. The issue is that we now have a phenomenon where it is safe to air these often negative attitudes with no fear of reprisal for one gender and the other has no way of saying otherwise.

Where did that come from?

“I've never said that misandry doesn't exist, just like I can't say that racism doesn't exist and misogynism doesn't exist. What I am saying is that there are millions of women who identify as feminist that would no more tolerate the mistreatment of men than they would cut off their right hand. I am one of those women. Most of the battles are won, but we still have a few to go, and they require much more of a soft hand and a thoughtful reaction. You can't change the hyper-sexualization of young girls by marching to the capital. You can't fix the pay differential by burning bras. The complexity of the solutions don't mean that there isn't a problem.” Julie

And I hear you when you say that, things aren’t fair by any stretch of the imagination. However, and if I’m over stepping my bounds gang, let me know, but I think the guys here are a little confused as to why you are defending a movement more than wondering about the level of Misandry that this woman openly displayed to a customer she didn’t even know? I’m all for what’s fair, I don’t think things are fair for women in the work place in a lot of cases, but how is it acceptable for a movement which isn’t above dishonesty to get it’s point across?

“So, that is my point. Is there anything productive about looking for it? Does it serve any real purpose except to stoke the natural anger that one would feel reading such one-sided, radical views about one's own gender or race?
These sites, and these radical feminists, don't speak for me or most women. They have freedom of speech like anyone else, but that doesn't mean that their views are shared by the majority of women.” LS
“Or the majority of feminists” Julie
And it is also important to separate cause and effect. Many people believe children need mothers more than fathers. This is an OLD belief. In fact, if you'd gotten divorced 50 or 100 years ago, it would've been immediately presumed that the children would go to the mother rather than the father.
Feminism didn't INVENT that bias. They just like it. That's an important distinction.” LS
I already submitted my answer to this in my previous comment, maybe the most extreme comments or attitudes aren’t shared by Feminists or even women for that matter (thank GOD) but like I have stated, what do you think is going through the minds of men as they saw that guy getting beaten up by his girlfriend? Amy also posted had a long list of comments about what happens when it’s the woman who is the physical abuser, where do men go for assistance? We now have a system which can be used or abused for a woman’s own gain if she so chooses. My nephew was almost rooked into this same issue, an ex of had claimed that he had hit her and if it wasn’t for my BIL watching the whole thing, God knows what would have happened.

I’m not talking about all of these personal stories for people to feel sorry for me, but to illustrate how the “system” can be manipulated by woman and where guys have virtually no say in the matter. From Capitol Hill, all the way to Earth Fare, there is indeed an issue in varying degrees. I will make this statement, not sure if the guys will agree with me or not, but it seems to me that most men wonder just how much of that attitude woman have. How fair is actually fair, will the woman they want to date or see be equal so long as they are, or will things be fair so long as it benefits them?

You say a lot here, Amax, but I'll address this:

let me know, but I think the guys here are a little confused as to why you are defending a movement more than wondering about the level of Misandry that this woman openly displayed to a customer she didn’t even know?

The answer is because this woman is a tiny raft of anger and hostility who does not represent an entire group of people. She has no connection to feminism whatsoever, and it helps no one when every act of hostility toward men is answered with "the feminists did it!"

This woman's misandry, while disheartening, was minor. No one's life was ruined because she thinks men are pigs. Maybe she goes home at night and throws rocks at men because they're men. Or maybe she was just angry and frustrated after a fight with her boyfriend, and she's actually a really nice person most of the time. She comes across as small and bitter, but fuck it. There are lots of small, bitter people in the world. In the end, I don't wonder about this particular woman because she doesn't speak for anyone but herself.

Absolutely Monica, and if this was an isolated incident, I would completely agree. If a guy had said this, or I mean the male version of this, I would dismiss him as a dude in a low in his life at the moment. If none of the other things I had stated in my previous posts had happened or continued to happen, if special interests groups didn't fabricate facts for whatever reason, if I never saw a television show, or movie which painted men in a bad light, (I've got a buddy who calls the Lifetime network the "Evil White Man" Network) I would laugh with you Monica as she is just that.

If a white person calls me a n-gger right now, I would dismiss him in a second, obviously times have changed and he/she isn't representative of the whole. If someone called me that say 60 years ago (DeLorean Time I guess) That would be a little harder to dismiss.

Wow, there's a lot to answer, and I guess my impulsive response is: Do men and women really have to like each other? No. But we are clearly happier - and live longer - when we do. So, there's a strong incentive to find a way to overcome these grievances.

Some people won't ever get past it. They are wallowing in their unhappiness, victimhood, and distrust. That is a clear choice, although one most healthy people wouldn't make.

I think, generally, women want a man that puts them first....above his own needs. There's nothing written that says he "has" to do this, but I'm telling you that most women want a man like that. If they don't find one, they'll grow increasingy disenchanted with the one they're with.

This has nothing to do with feminism. The hope and ideal originated long before feminism. It has to do with the free market exchange. Men want pretty, sexual young women, and women want to trade their beauty and youth for love...the best, most passionate and attentive love they can get.

Odds are, both genders will likely be disappointed with their trades in most cases, but women have been taught that their trade is the most fragile because after they are "used" sexually, and older physically, they are less valuable in the marketplace.

This creates some anger at men. Not because feminism "taught" women this but because they, themselves, feel anger at men for "using" them, ie: wasting their most marketable years.

We cannot change this. The only way it will ever change is if men make a concerted effort not to hurt women. Just as the only way racial prejudice will ever change is if whites can trust blacks won't hurt them and can live alongside them peacefully and productively.

I, like Amy, believe blacks do have a certain obligation to set the bar high. To tell young boys that they need to be non-violent citizens and responsible fathers, not joining gangs, knocking up multiple women and abandoning their kids.

The same goes for men in general. You have an obligation to set a higher standard for men. To say that using and abusing women is no longer toleranted. To say that abandoning your family isn't right. Presenting John and Kate as an example, you must say that having a full-blown mid-life crisis - and chasing young women - when you have EIGHT kids to think about is WRONG. Men should say so, not wish they were in his shoes! If you don't do that, then you seem complicit in what is wrong with so many men - abandoning their wives and families.

And THAT is what creates anger at men. You are dismissing the real actions of men that cause this anger, and, instead, blaming it all on feminism. But there are real, every day examples of men behaving terribly (John Edwards, anyone?) that creates the animosity. You have to acknowledge that. You have to strive to fix it. It's not enough just to blame feminists. That isn't the full story. There are real problems between the genders and it's not all women's fault. Much of male behavior is to blame too, and unless you become accountable for that, we're not going to resolve these issues.

I can see what you are speaking of, but in my opinion this goes both ways. Like you have stated, women trade their sexual appeal/beauty/fertility for love and companionship. This makes perfect sense to me and of course I can see where you are coming from. I also understand the point about being used up during their most marketable years, well from a logical standpoint. From Amy's blog it makes sense that a woman's fertility/apparearance is also her most marketable asset. And I can also understand that being with a partner who doesn't fulfill those needs can indeed breed resentment. However, there are all sorts of media telling men about a woman's needs, and what he needs to do to fulfill them, and rightly so.

However, I can tell you that I do my best to give my wife the kind of love you describe. And I happen to know a few other guys who do the same thing. If you want to talk about disenchantment, I have yet to meet a guy whose wife decides to give them back the needs they give out. Are all women like this? Of course not, but just by looking around even my own town, this doesn't seem to be the case.

Maybe I'm speaking for myself, I have no qualm with doing what I can to make my wife happy, when I spoke earlier about my wife and I requiring counseling it was due to the fact that if she had an issue, I changed straight away, if I had an issue, I got an excuse. Why was that okay? On Dr. Helen's site she mentioned the 1950's man.

Think about Kephren (the gentleman who was the LW from "Donut Seem Unfair") he worked 12 hours a day, so that his wife could have a psuedo-career which didn't pay well yet she enjoyed, and he knew this and had no problem with doing, yet she balked when he asked her to maintian her appearance. When I hear these excuses some women make, especially from guys who DO want to deliver the love that their wives want, I think about the what the typical guy from the 50's may have told his wife;

"I work and pay the bills, isn't that enough?"

And I ask you the same thing. If it wasn't good enough for a man to simply come home and flop in front of the television with a beer, why is it good enough for a woman not to bother with her apperance or horizontal hokey pokey? Why is it good enough for Kephren despite him working his tail off to provide the house and a career for his wife that wouldn't really pay any meaningful bills?

I too got that excuse from my wife despite even she knowing that I would drop whatever I was doing in order to do what she asked. I bet I'm not the only one.

But you have also stated that men must make a concerted effort not to hurt women, I hear that and it does make sense...think about everthing I had posted before, think about Kephren and what I told you even about myself...are you saying that men are responsible for women acting the way they do now? All this misandry is because of men?

Sure there are some jerk offs in the world, but there are also some good men too who would do anything for their wives, yet if they ask them to take a walk, or anything else along those lines, even if they are willing to help out around the house to do so, issues, they should be happy with what they get, just like in the 50's only that the genders are reversed.

You mentioned Jon and Kate, yes him leaving was wrong, but you expect him to take that abuse from his brow beating wife? Where are the people taking her aside telling her what she was doing was wrong? Where are the people telling her that he may leave and break up the family? He did try to stand up to her, and she hit him. Him leaving may cause anger at women, but why is it okay for her to treat him like this in the first place? If the only answer to keep them together was for him to lie down and take it, where do you think the anger is going to come from then?

Women aren't expected to simply lie down and take abuse from thoughtless men, and rightly so. I do thank Feminism for this, but isn't the same also true in the reverse? If it isn't then we have a bigger problem than I expected.

That somewhat suggests, just like that woman who had stated to me online, that men should just sit and take whatever behavior is meted out, whether it be bad or good. Leaving will of course cause her to be angry and break up the family. What about responsibility? What about not demeaning him so that he wants to stay?

Is that not what had happened in the past? Is that not what had happened in the 50's when women where simply there to clean up after men and stay quiet and smile, no matter how much of a boar he was? It wasn't right then, and it isn't right now. What's good for the goose....

If things where reveresed, he would have been told that his appaling behavior was what made his wonderful leave him, why is he the one who is wrong for leaving an emotionally abusive wife? You had said that men want to emulate him, I haven't read this but then I really don't want a part of that obscene spectacle, but during that time there where more than a few women who cheered Kate for being a strong, no nonsense woman. This is the issue I, and others speak of.

Some of us guys will indeed bend over backward to make the women in our lives happy, yet for a good portion of said women, they don't seem to be under any obligation to give back in some cases. almost as if just being there is good enough. Where do you think the anger is going to come from then? You said then us guys need to stop hurting women, well I ask you when is anyone going to care about women hurting men?

Us men and women in LTR's can leave at anytime. If you treat your SO well, they have little reason to leave. If you treat them badly, they have little reason to stay. This goes for both genders, period.

Maybe men should start a group similar to NOW, I wonder what would be the result? Would it be like men with abusive wives? Where the authorities simply laugh when a man calls to say that his wife hit him? What happens when anyone states "Save the Males?" The assumption is made that they do not need saving.

Feminists worked hard for equal say, for responsibiity, which I have no issue with, and in all honesty I think is a very good thing. If this is what one wants then take responsibility. Just as a man needs to wine an dine his wife to make her happy, than should she also be doing things to make him happy aswell? Aren't men and woman supposed to be equals in terms of relationships?

Possibly this is because of the fact that men and women do not understand each other, this makes sense of course, and as for me, I had to study quite a bit to get my heard around the things to be done to make a woman happy. However, there where statements from Feminists made under the assumption that men and women where exactly the same, except for socializing behavior. I'm sure this caused just a little confusion.

This could not be further from the truth as you already know as a regular reader of this site and I already have one friend who suffers from this idea who is on her way to staying lonely for a long time. I have no ill will for anyone who wants fairness, but I do have an issue when a some feminists look at me stating that things still aren't fair for women(which they aren't, I agree with you and there Julie there) when I look at My friend Dave who never gets to see his daughter because his mother is being..well I will say not very nice. He was told that the courts would give him more attention if he didn't pay his child support, since he pays, any requests he makes simply fall into the black hold of bureaucracy.

I have no issue with helping anyway I can for fairness,but if it's going to come at my expense, I'm going to be much more hesitant to offer my hand.

Amax, let me just first say that I do believe it is as much a woman's obligation to please her man - sexually and otherwise - as it is a man's obligation to please his woman.

Whatever is most important to your partner, even if it sounds silly, should be heard and responded to. And, within reason, both women and men should care enough to stay in shape and attractive for each other. That doesn't mean men should expect a supermodel, or women a beefcake, but each should try to stay as trim as possible...the normal ravages and imperfections that come with age, notwithstanding.

I personally do this, and I also try to have sex as frequently as possible with my boyfriend. Yet, obviously, some women don't take this seriously, and you are right that they should.

I think sometimes there is a misreading of needs and a man will not really understand what would make a woman happier and more willing to respond sexually. Men tend to define this in terms of proving monetarily, which is important to women, but other things can be more important.

In Kate's case, for instance, she seemed to want more help, as she was overwhelmed, and, although it's never excusable to browbeat, it was almost like he was acting like a child rather than a full partner. She seemed to need to care for/manage/keep him out of trouble as much as the 8 young kids. They clearly needed counseling to address this, as some minor adjustments in the beginning of their problems could've likely prevented a divorce.

The system is, unfortunately, weighted down with divorces. The courts can't possibly properly address every grievance between parents. Courts tend to have a bias towards the status quo - keeping children in whatever situation existed before the divorce (in the family home, usually with mom). That is for the children's sake, not the parents. A lot of the changes men want in the divorce court system is too radical given the effects it would have on the children's stability. Children just can't be split in half in a way that makes both parents happy most of the time, although split custody arrangements are becoming more common.

Bottom line, the best we can do to be happy in our relationships is to choose a good partner - one that loves us for who we are and wants to meet our needs and vice versa. Unfortunately, as a necessity, most women choose mates and begin having children during the peak of their fertility years, when they are also the most naive and inexperienced. It's like choosing blind.

If people waited longer before settling down, we'd probably have much better, more lasting relationships. Yet, women can't all wait until 40 to start having children, and most men prefer the youngest women they can find.

So, when you look at the process that exists, it's kind of a recipe for disaster! Bad coupling = unhappy people = broken families.

We need to do more to train young people how to make a better choice of partner. We teach them all sorts of useless information but leave one of the most crucial decisions of life to chance.

"We need to do more to train young people how to make a better choice of partner. We teach them all sorts of useless information but leave one of the most crucial decisions of life to chance."

Damn skippy, I concur!!!

This is what I mean, how is it okay for women to group together and make such hateful remarks?

It isn't, but extremists don't speak for everyone. They certainly don't speak for me, and I wouldn't (and don't) tolerate comments like that made in my presence, no matter who they are referencing.

Is that sort of behavior acceptable?

No, but many people find it entertaining ...otherwise no one would watch it. I've never seen an episode myself.

imagine what your husband thinks when he sees this sort of thing.

hehe, I know that you don't know my husband, but one rarely has to Imagine what he is thinking. :-D My husband and I talk on a semi-regular basis about the difficulties of being a man and the difficulties of being a woman. For the two of us, it is a draw, but we are also each partnered with a person who knows the other to be equal.

We actually came up with a formula 3+3=4+2 We are EQUAL but not THE SAME. We don't tolerate anyone using bigoted speech in our presence, and have actually left family functions to stop one particular member of our family from ranting about men.

Jon and Kate Plus 8

And I see two sides to this story. She is obviously a controlling shrew and I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes with her, let alone a lifetime. However, they are still married and he is very obviously tom catting around. Whether male or female, infidelity is just shitty and inexcusable. Frankly their first mistake was deciding to have a litter of children that they couldn't afford, but that is another conversation.

A young woman constantly hitting, browbeating, and demeaning her boyfriend in the bar.

Women can be abusive. I won't argue against that. My father had a friend during my early teens whose wife would beat him with keys poking from between her fingers. It is one of the things that I witnessed that formed me into an equalist. I will never hit anyone, male or female, unless I fully expect to be hit back. It changes the whole game.

One of the issues I personally have is this one; name the hardest job in the world? Of course, being a mother.

I know that I am going to catch hell with this one, but I've never understood why everyone thinks being a mother is so much harder than being a nuclear physicist, or a stunt man, or leader of the free world. It also depends upon what you find difficult. Some women love being mothers and it comes easily to them, and we now live in a time where women who don't want to be mothers don't have to be mothers. Wouldn't that lend toward the women who are mothers having an easier time of it? I suspect that this statement comes from mothers feeling like they aren't respected by the country in general.

The issue that I have is that responsibility is more like a hat with women; they seemingly are allowed to remove it at will, with no ill issues as a result.

I can't say that I have ever had someone absolve me of my personal responsibility. I've never experienced this phenomenon. However, I'm not someone who would allow someone to take my responsibility. I understand that independence and responsibility go hand in hand.

So in essence, my job was to essentially provide my wife and her kids with a better life and shut my mouth when it came to my needs, does that sound familiar to anyone?

Boy, that person was an idiot! Relationships are interpersonal contracts created to meet the needs of both parties. If someone's needs aren't being met on a consistent basis (we all have our off days) that invalidates the contract.

I hope that you and your wife were able to work things out. My experience in 15 years of marriage is that relationships will go through really rough times, but if you can hold on and continue to act with respect for each other, things turn around.

That’s the picture I mean, this is why some of the guys get their backs up at something like that cashier had stated.

And I wouldn't have stood by and allowed that type of speech to continue if I'd been shopping there. I don't tolerate that type of behavior, and I certainly don't use my money to promote it.

The issue is that we now have a phenomenon where it is safe to air these often negative attitudes with no fear of reprisal for one gender and the other has no way of saying otherwise.

Where did that come from?

Probably from the same place that keeps me as a white person from being allowed to criticize the black community without being labeled a racist. Am I a racist? Nope, I think all forms of hate are a waste of energy, but I'm not allowed to make those criticisms, am I?

-Julie

"Probably from the same place that keeps me as a white person from being allowed to criticize the black community without being labeled a racist. Am I a racist? Nope, I think all forms of hate are a waste of energy, but I'm not allowed to make those criticisms, am I?"

I do hear that and I will say that I don't agree with that either. This was what I meant about issues within my own race. I do not think it fair to take someone else's freedoms to facilitate my own. If they can be taken from one and given to me, they can also be taken from me and given to another.

Can a suitable comprimise NOT be reached? Affirmative action does sound good in theory, but now instead of holding back minorities, you are holding back other races, how is that fair?? I've been told many times of things which if races where reversed would have been racism without a doubt. Not really sure where I had read this, but it seems it's okay to make fund of the person, or group in power, but the reverse would be taking advantage.

Either way, it isn't right now is it? As for me, usually I have not much negative to say about white people, I'm married to one, there are many attitudes that I dislike in my own race and I really wish it would change, or that more would realize that bad isn't good, the thug image ONLY works for Rap Stars.

"Women can be abusive. I won't argue against that. My father had a friend during my early teens whose wife would beat him with keys poking from between her fingers. It is one of the things that I witnessed that formed me into an equalist. I will never hit anyone, male or female, unless I fully expect to be hit back. It changes the whole game."

And good for you, thank Goodness this moved you into seeing this issue for what it was. However, you as an individual wasn't what I was referencing, I was talking about how the system doesn't seem to see an issue with it in some ways. I've come across far too many men hauled off to jail even for a night because their SO's told a fib. Maybe the system is a little too easy to manipulate.

"I know that I am going to catch hell with this one, but I've never understood why everyone thinks being a mother is so much harder than being a nuclear physicist, or a stunt man, or leader of the free world. It also depends upon what you find difficult. Some women love being mothers and it comes easily to them, and we now live in a time where women who don't want to be mothers don't have to be mothers. Wouldn't that lend toward the women who are mothers having an easier time of it? I suspect that this statement comes from mothers feeling like they aren't respected by the country in general."

I had first heard it on Oprah, then on Dr. Phil, then the post about Step-Moms on this site a while ago. Here is my point about this particular topic; that if a guy normally begins to state his issues about being a man in North America, a woman will jump up and tell him that he has nothing on her (maybe not so much here but I believe any poster here is smarther than the average bear anyway).

I've always believed that if one has an issue, we all have an issue (which is why I'm not happy about white's not being able to get some jobs due to affirmative action) but how can solutions ever be rectified if no one hears them out? Resentment can rot anything, yeah?

Possibly this is where some get the idea that some women have this "entitlement complex". I simply don't think anyone is entitled to anything without working for it. Somethng for nothing doesn't exist.

"I can't say that I have ever had someone absolve me of my personal responsibility. I've never experienced this phenomenon. However, I'm not someone who would allow someone to take my responsibility. I understand that independence and responsibility go hand in hand."

What I mean by this is situations where a woman possibly acting out is now justified. There was a case on Dr. Helen and Amy had it too where a famous football player was killed. Yes he was cheating, and make no mistake I despise cheating in all it's forms, however, even on Dr Helen's site you had people talking about how she was the other woman and how this caused the issue. If he hadn't cheated, this would have happened, as if it was his fault for driving her to this.

Should he have cheated, HELL NO, never a good idea, but there are things which are going to happen in life that we aren't going to like, but when does that justify an action so drastic? What I also mean is that whenever situations like the ones I have mentioned happen, it sets a precedent. Everyone sees this woman get away with this or that man getting screwed out of that (and vice versa) and people take note. This is how situations get worse, escalation of the continued exploitation of the system.

"Boy, that person was an idiot! Relationships are interpersonal contracts created to meet the needs of both parties. If someone's needs aren't being met on a consistent basis (we all have our off days) that invalidates the contract"

Thank you for the kind words, my wife and I are doing much better thank you. The issue in which I mean is that this comes up a fair bit in some cases, which is the issue I mean. I completely agree with you when it comes to needs being met, heck, I look at LTR's as making a sale, with my continual following up forever thereafter.

If I do not follow up, why would my wife stay? I know that there are quite a few men who drop the ball when it comes to relationships, but the attitude I sometimes get when it comes to women is that they don't HAVE to do any work. Whatever the reason, like you said, not meeting needs is a sure way to rot your relationship. If this had only happened to me I would of course not think much of it, sadly I have seen this regularly and the reverse simply doesn't happen as much.

"And I wouldn't have stood by and allowed that type of speech to continue if I'd been shopping there. I don't tolerate that type of behavior, and I certainly don't use my money to promote it."

This is the issue I'm most afraid of, I could be mistaken, but I really wonder if the only ones who would have been listened to ARE women. If a guy had stated that they found this offensive, would anything have transpired?

Thanks for reading, I do know I'm very long winded, damn ADD.

"The issue in which I mean is that this comes up a fair bit in some cases, which is the issue I mean."

DAMN ADD, I wish I could edit!!!

Amax, I don't have much to add, except that in the case of McNair, the cheating football player I think you're referring to, some of the empathy for his lover was not really because she was a woman but because she was so young.

In cheating situations, partners often forget that they are playing with someone else's feelings, not just having sex. Especially when there is an age difference, the advantage can be so imbalanced.

If these were two people around the same age, who had just decided to have a little fling on the side for sexual gratification, it would be different. Nothing justifies taking the action she did, but when it's a young person who is led to believe that the older person loves them and wants to be with them, possibly even marry them, this is going to garner more sympathy...not because she's female, but because that person has been lied to and manipulated. We need to be cautious about ascribing gender bias to every situation.

And, you know, we have free speech in this country. There are embittered women who will speak out against men, just as there are racists who will speak out against blacks. Before coming to this site, I tended to believe that no one took them too seriously anymore - that most everyone saw it for what it was, just like we view the KKK or white supremists - the rantings of fringe groups or individuals with a certain sad pathology or background.

I know it upsets men to hear that, but we women are not immune from being bashed ourselves. That just isn't true. Words like "bitch" and "whore" are often thrown around by men without anyone saying anything. In fact, listeners often laugh. It may not be as "politically correct" to demean women in a broad sense publicly, just as it isn't acceptable for whites to openly demean blacks, but that doesn't mean the n-word isn't being used behind closed doors, in private homes and bars. If you listen, you can hear it. So I just don't think it's fair act as if men are always out there saying sweet things about women. This is not just a female problem.

Here is my point about this particular topic; that if a guy normally begins to state his issues about being a man in North America, a woman will jump up and tell him that he has nothing on her (maybe not so much here but I believe any poster here is smarther than the average bear anyway).

I've always regarded anyone who would attempt to create competition with me about 'who has things worse' as one step lower than a crack whore. At least the crack whore is attempting to earn his/her keep. If someone wants to make misery noble, they will attempt to degrade any joy they can find, including someone else's.

I've always believed that if one has an issue, we all have an issue (which is why I'm not happy about white's not being able to get some jobs due to affirmative action) but how can solutions ever be rectified if no one hears them out? Resentment can rot anything, yeah?

I agree that if one person has an issue, we all have an issue. However, feminism bashing isn't discussing an issue. It is just throwing rocks. I agree that many men don't have a fair shake, and that in an attempt to be 'kind' to women 'victims' the justice system has created an environment where many men are guilty until proven innocent. That MUST change. However I marvel at the energy many men spend here bitching about the horrors of feminism and not doing a darn practical thing to resolve these issues. Are y'all writing your congressperson? Are you starting an organization to help men caught in these situations? Are you supporting the organizations that exist with your time, money, or both? (And I'm not necessarily speaking to you Amax, this has been a very congenial conversation, and I appreciate that.) Think of all of the hours that have been spent arguing with me over the past several months about whether these problems were caused by feminism. What could y'all have done to solve the problem with those hours?

Somethng for nothing doesn't exist.

I agree, if you think that something is free that just means that YOU didn't pay for it.

I know that there are quite a few men who drop the ball when it comes to relationships, but the attitude I sometimes get when it comes to women is that they don't HAVE to do any work. Whatever the reason, like you said, not meeting needs is a sure way to rot your relationship.

Yup, and a sure way to keep a happy relationship a lifetime is for both people to feel very lucky to have the other. I won't say that my husband doesn't get on my nerves sometimes, but in the end I know that he would go to the end of the earth to help me out, and I would do the same for him. When things get rough, I remind myself of that.

I also look at the intention of an action. If he goes out of his way to do something nice, I make sure to show my appreciation for his intentions, even if the dinner he cooked didn't turn out perfect or the dress he bought me wasn't in the right size. Women are generally too critical of the men in their lives and they don't realize how hard they are trying to make them happy. Men deserve that credit and gratitude.

This is the issue I'm most afraid of, I could be mistaken, but I really wonder if the only ones who would have been listened to ARE women. If a guy had stated that they found this offensive, would anything have transpired?

And I have no problem speaking up. However, the same thing could be said about rape and assault. I agree that some women use allegations of these horrible crimes to punish men, but they still happen more than they should. I'm very willing to stand up to anyone speaking ill of any group of people. I don't hear many men speaking out against rape and domestic abuse.

-Julie