I'm A Foul-Smelling "Nazy" (Part Two)
(This post has been updated and moved up a day.)
You don't have to agree with me on my views about parental consideration -- in fact, it's quite fine if you don't.
But, if you do disagree with me, how about some civilized expression of your disagreement? Apparently, that's not in the plans for architect Fernando Andrade. I got this e-mail from him, subject lined "Kids":
In a message dated 11/27/09 11:36:41 AM, gsra.fandrade@gmail.com writes:
You probably don't have kids, and if you do..... God save them! I don't like the way you look.... I should not be force to share the same fligth, your smell really bothers me..... Get of the plane..... You are but a step away from being a nazy....
My response:
Fernando,
It seems you have a difference of opinion with me, and I welcome hearing it. Unfortunately, you've just chosen to speculate on how I smell and call me a "Nazy."On your website, you look like a much more respectful person than is reflected in this e-mail to me. Do you speak this way to people you disagree with in public, or just when you can dash off an e-mail to them? -Amy Alkon
UPDATED: Architect Fernando Andrade writes back, proud of what he wrote the first time:
In a message dated 11/27/09 1:06:49 PM, gsra.fandrade@gmail.com writes:My point is what do u do with people you don't like... For whatever reason... Not "you" per say but anyone for that matter... I refer to you in a general way that encompass those who are not tolerant... Do you know for a fact that the mother did not try to controll the kid? Were does it stop?
You have pick the wrong subject to make a point... A rude and loud adult is a completly different thing than a child...
I don't know you... Don't know how you smell or for that matter how you look, but I take it that it offends you my reference to smell and looks... I'm just trying to make the point ... Intolerance is what create the biggest problems in this world.... And yes, I do speak my mind when I believe that people are in the wrong... Or mistaken on their views.
You write, I respond.... I am not hidding my email or name,
today you ( people in general)preach kick crying kids out of public exposure tomorrow.... Who knows?!...trow them overboard?
My response:
Let's see, you're a grown man, and an architect for some years, and you equate my saying parents should be considerate of other passengers who may not only find hours of a child screaming unpleasant, but may get migraines from it, with...throwing children overboard?Do you typically run around screaming at people that they smell and they're (this is so quaint) "Nazys" whenever you have a difference of opinion about them? Come on, admit it, didn't you think you'd just get verbally violent with me, try to be hurtful, because you thought you'd get away with it?
For the record, you didn't sign your name to your e-mail (and I suspect you didn't write an e-mail like that expecting to get one back starting "Fernando") -- I'm just good at tracking people down. You weren't hard at all, for me, but your e-mail address doesn't translate directly to your architecture firm and name. I suspect you thought you'd just slam me in a most nasty way and get away with it. Isn't that the truth?
There are many people who've disagreed with my opinion -- on this op-ed, and at other times -- who've written me long, civil e-mails to tell me why. I respect them for their civil, adult response -- although I still may not agree with them. Commenters on my blog -- like a guy named Crid -- have persuaded me on a number of issues with rational argument. I really like that...yes, even smelly, "Nazy" that I am.
Are you raising children and is this the example you set for them? Do you tell them to call people names and make fun of them for being ugly or smelling bad? And even if you don't, do you think maybe this part of your "character" seeps through to them? If so, I think I should write an op-ed about the likes of you!
Why do you think it's right and even positive to "tolerate" those who are completely inconsiderate of others? This mother, for example, reportedly didn't feed her child before they got on the plane. She also made this all about her, and how terrible things were for her. I see this as typical of the culture of "go-right-ahead" mommying, and something that will not bode well for the rest of us when children, so narcissistically raised, grow up. I was raised to be concerned for others. As I wrote in the piece, the idea that I would ever be loud in a public place did not exist for me in what was possible in the known universe.
How do parents who care about others do it? My neighbor, who is a great mother, but also a considerate person, had to travel with her two young children when her husband's mother was sick. She sees that they're fed and rested before getting on the plane, brings each a change of clothes in case they spill something, brings toys and games to distract them, brings snacks, and brings little surprise toys and games to distract them if the other distractions aren't working.
When her daughter was a little younger and once started crying on a plane, she was mortified at disturbing other passengers. She took her into the bathroom to soothe her so she wouldn't disturb the other passengers with her crying.
I love my my neighbors' children, who sometimes are loud and wake me up, because their parents try to see that they don't. Their trying -- and caring -- makes all the difference, and makes me able to laugh on occasions when the little boy does. Accidents happen and are part of life. Had my parents been in that woman's position -- and they wouldn't have been, because they didn't take us out until we were able to be in public without disturbing others -- they would have probably evaporated out of embarrassment on the spot...after apologizing to the entire plane.
So glad you're so proud of what you've written, because I posted your initial response on my blog to give you a wider voice. I'll post and tweet your response as well.
PS More on how I was raised and on how good parents act here.
Dear lady, please don't feed the trolls. I, at least, know that for every competent adult, there are several whose only use is to serve as a bad example for others.
When you write, the content is far better than when you sully your page with their... seepage.
Radwaste at November 27, 2009 12:54 PM
I agree. This guy is a moron.
Hey Fernando- design yourself a new hairpiece.
Eric at November 27, 2009 1:08 PM
GSR Andrade Architects
Principal / Director of Design
You'd think someone with a job that sounds that important would have better spelling, and certainly better grammar.
Patrick at November 27, 2009 1:28 PM
You can smell people over the Internet now? Where do you find these nutjobs!
Lobster at November 27, 2009 3:45 PM
> Dear lady, please don't feed the trolls.
Feed the trolls! I say feed the trolls! Feed them 'til they're fat enough that they don't want to be trolls any more. If there must be a fight in the future, it is always, always better to have it sooner rather than later.
Listen, comments and emails like this are precisely the kind of boundary violation Amy's talking about.
At root is the belief of the commenters that people they encounter in public settings (airplanes, blogs, etc.) don't have souls, or even feelings that can be irritated. These correspondents are, in a very genuine but mild way, psychopaths.
It's amusing how the other guy folded so quickly when challenged... Once he had his name attached to a public expression, he had to concede an unpleasant truth about adulthood: That it's not about being endlessly tolerant of misbehavior. Adults are supposed to make things go smoothly.
And now, let's talk about Amy. I have a lot of disagreements about her regarding fundamental stuff, but her public boundaries are spotless and polished and shiny. When you read these emails she shares with us, and the comments for her LA Times piece and so forth, it's amazing how some people are so personally offended by her deportment (which I regard as perfectly courteous).
It's not enough for them that they themselves suffer the indignities of unruly children and other incompetents in public: They want other people to suffer, too. This is not about courtesy or compassion. This is about cowardice. They think they if they can spread their illness around, that they won't suffer as badly.
Amy's having none of it, which is cool.
Many of us are fully equipped to handle genuine intrusions into our personal space and development, but are nonetheless burdened with esprit d'escalier when challenged in lesser assaults. We should be grateful to the Amys of the world for spraying the piss that helps keep those assaults to a minimum.
Maybe this aggression is in her character naturally, or maybe she was nurtured into it... But I think the truth is probably "both", and that means each of us has a duty to speak up and keep the small-minded people around us on their best behavior.
______________
PS— And by the way, with the airplane thing, wasn't it the case that the airline kicked the unruly family off because the child was making it difficult for the other passengers to receive communications from the crew? So wasn't this actually about safety?.... And is it not therefore a slam-dunk for Amy's team?
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 27, 2009 4:06 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/28/im_a_foulsmelli.html#comment-1679407">comment from Crid [CridComment @ gmail]Thanks, Crid - agree with every word. And to all those people out there who disagreed with me in really ugly ways, Crid and I do have differences on a number of subjects but we hash them out here, and it never gets ugly between us. It's just debate. And through debate, Crid has changed my mind on a number of topics, as have other people here. I really like that -- and I'm one of those people who appreciates criticism (from people whose minds and judgment I respect, I should say).
One of the things I love about both my boyfriend and my agent is that they both tell me, gently but expressly, when I'm being an idiot. Well, when they think I'm being an idiot...but in these cases, when they speak up, they're usually right. My editorial assistant, too, is wise, and has the integrity keep at me when I'm doing something dumb until I finally see her point. I can't tell you how grateful I am for this. People who don't care about you, they just let you make an ass out of yourself.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 4:31 PM
Sure, Crid - but there are so many cretins; I'm only expressing a wish for better stuff.
Like yours. (And that's not a suck-up.)
Radwaste at November 27, 2009 4:33 PM
Its ironic.
If you write a book about manners, the people who most need it, are the people least likely to read it, while the people who least need it, are the most likely to buy it.
Hopefully the latter will make a gift of it to the former.
Robert at November 27, 2009 4:40 PM
> Like yours. (And that's not
> a suck-up.)
As long as compliments come wrapped in such handsome bitchslaps, I'll accept them without bogus modesty. Our mission, above all, is entertainment...
Also, I typed deportment but meant comportment, and got away with it. So it's my lucky weekend... Don't fuck with me! My magic is black and powerful!
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 27, 2009 5:50 PM
And offtopic, this, from a fun piece tweeted by V Postrel:
Andrew Sullivan, whose mission in life is apparently to give continued currency the old charge that homosexual men are freaked out by fecund, motherly women, has bizarrely characterized Palin....
As God is my witness, I hadn't thought about it (Andrew's Palin dementia) that way, but much would be explained. Maybe it's part of that gay marriage thing. Gay men really don't want to acknowledge that there's anything special about motherhood. (And nobody wants to acknowledge that there's anything special about fatherhood.)
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 27, 2009 5:56 PM
I don't always agree with Amy on things, but I have never felt that when I disagree that she was going to attack me in a way that is malicious. Even when I have taken my lumps on this site by other commenters, usually it is in the form of discussion. I would hope that as mature adults that we could all disagree on subjects in an intelligent way. These letter writers are not using intelligent thoughts, in fact, I wonder if they could even put one together. To attack someone's looks because of an opinion is a sign of the lowest form of life.
Amy is far from ugly. She's a beautiful woman from what I can see. I don't know how receiving all of those insulting emails would make me feel after awhile. People need to get a grip.
Oh, and for Crid......I think motherhood is very special. I also think fatherhood is very special. I know some wonderful fathers. Unfortunately I know a few shitty ones too. I don't agree with you that gay marriage erases the importance of either sex as a parent. Tag your it!
Kristen at November 28, 2009 7:05 AM
> I don't agree with you that
> gay marriage erases the
> importance of either sex
> as a parent.
I haven't a clue what point you're trying to make.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 28, 2009 8:36 AM
Crid: Gay men really don't want to acknowledge that there's anything special about motherhood. (And nobody wants to acknowledge that there's anything special about fatherhood.)
Oh, did someone get antsy because Amy hasn't blogged about gay marriage in a while?
I suppose it does provide a nice parallel to unruly brats at that. Like the children in France, Crid, you will be served what the grownups are eating, and your options are clear: "Eat or starve." Pick out the parts you don't like, but no one is cooking macaroni just for spoiled little you.
Patrick at November 28, 2009 8:47 AM
> Oh,
Be interesting.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 28, 2009 10:39 AM
So. Um. Anyone else here suprised about Dubai?
Eric at November 28, 2009 12:04 PM
Dobbs in 2012!
Eric at November 28, 2009 12:12 PM
Crid pouts: Be interesting.
You first.
Patrick at November 28, 2009 12:44 PM
Amy's new battered husband: Tiger Woods!
Eric at November 28, 2009 12:52 PM
Crid: I haven't a clue
Truer words never appeared on this blog.
Patrick at November 28, 2009 1:40 PM
Good for you Amy for "exposing" him. The tone of his "follow-up" was a lot less insulting. He was only worried about being outed as a douchebag and his potential or current clients seeing his nastiness on full display.
I could go off on a rant at what horrible grammar and communication skills this man has for a professional business person, but then I wasn't raised that way. Perhaps English his second language or perhaps he is suffering from a disability of some sort, an internet Tourettes type of affliction. I see a lot of it online. It's quite rampant. I am surprised the big pharma people have not invented a medication for it yet. Wait. Yes, yes they have. It's called how about a nice big cup of shut the hell up!
I showed Ferdy's emails to my teenage son and he just shook his head and said "good thing that dude draws for a living."
When I asked my son what he recalled about his younger childhood years and being out in public, he said "I just remember always KNOWING that disrespect of others and misbehavior of any kind was NEVER an option. Probably because that's what you expected." Monkey see, monkey do!
Thanks for writing the column, Amy. It opened up a lot of dialogue for people who need to hear it.
Rosemary at November 28, 2009 2:08 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/28/im_a_foulsmelli.html#comment-1679503">comment from RosemaryThanks so much, Rosemary - for your comment and for raising a civilized son!
And people who are really horrid in an e-mail tend to mend their ways fast when I write back to them with their first name. Amateur detective work is my hobby. One night, Gregg was in Detroit and mentioned something about "lost Encyclopedia Britannica films" by Elmore. He'd hired a researcher to find them, and I guess only a few had been found. In a couple of hours, I tracked them all down, and ordered three of them off eBay for $9.84 with shipping!
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 2:30 PM
Steve Allen had a standard response to letters like Fernando's. He'd return the missive to the author, with an appended note: I thought you’d like to see what some fool is sending out under your name.
te at November 28, 2009 4:27 PM
Crid:
"As God is my witness, I hadn't thought about it (Andrew's Palin dementia) that way, but much would be explained. Maybe it's part of that gay marriage thing. Gay men really don't want to acknowledge that there's anything special about motherhood."
Well, if that were true of "gay men" wholesale, then presumably the post you cited wouldn't have been written by a gay blogger, and I have it on unimpeachable authority that he's every bit as queer as Andrew Sullivan.
In any case, I'm not sure your point was, really, off topic. Like other visceral Palin critics, Sullivan doesn't seem to be asking himself whether he's crossing the line from hardball investigative reporting on an ambitious political figure into crass, ungentlemanly character assassination. He has a perch from which to lob shots at her, so he does it, without seeming to give a whole lot of thought to the way he's degrading the level of discourse.
Sean Kinsell at November 28, 2009 4:40 PM
A positive review of "I See Rude People" is in a couple of the Bay Area newspapers today. On the San Jose Mercury news website the few comments from readers, so far, have been positive. Considering Amy is receiving a helping of vicious comments thrown at her..... pointing out the positive responses is probably necessary.
TW at November 28, 2009 4:43 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/28/im_a_foulsmelli.html#comment-1679513">comment from TWThanks, TW - going to post tomorrow. Been working like crazy on next week's column since way early today!
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 4:46 PM
The Internet sure has shown us how many people are uncivilized cretins behind the facades they show to most people in public each day. :-(
Robert W. at November 28, 2009 4:47 PM
> Well, if that were true of
> "gay men" wholesale
Nothing ever is... But that doesn't mean anybody wants to be rhetorically paralyzed. Some truths are general (not wholesale), so for the fifth time, I'll cite the old Lileks blog post. If someone spots a trend, will you insist that they list, by name and Social Security number, the intellectual habits of every fellow who's ever kissed a boy? Paglia (like others) offers general insights about popular thinking among ordinary people who happen to be gay; doing so is not a crime. Besides:
> presumably the post you cited
> wouldn't have been written
> by a gay blogger
Who's the one trying to pigeonhole? I don't care where the cited blogger wiggles his weenie: He's identified a typical and bad presumption on the part of an opinion leader, and his explanation for it is convincing.
> Sullivan doesn't seem to be
> asking himself whether he's
> crossing the line
There's no better commendation for Palin than the reflexive bitterness of her enemies. From the first hours of her national fame (and I remember them clearly), it was apparent that lefties were responding to a figure who operated quite comfortably in their blind spots. Those people are afraid of her because they ought to be; none of them hate her just a little, though many will conversationally disguise their fear as pity. To the rest of us, she's merely a normal politician... But we have fewer blinding illusions about human character.
As for Sullivan himself, I lost interest in him shortly after the attacks, when it became obvious he had no attachment to any principle beyond the strongest apparent posture, or perhaps the most popular one. Kaus once speculated that this was a consequence of Andy's Oxford education, where debaters are taught more about the importance of winning than about choosing the right side.
> The Internet sure has shown us
> how many people are uncivilized
> cretins behind the facades they
> show to most people in public
> each day. :-(
Frown if you want. I think it's also shown us how many people are tragically naive in the presumption that everyone standing around them agrees with them, such that they've never made a habit of meaningful conversations with others. These are people who think blog comments are a sewer. Having never had their thoughts tested by other minds, their principles are badly undercooked. This touches on the Palin phenomenon as well: They're incapable of defending their beliefs, and all they can do is talk presumptively about how reprehensible their opponents are.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 28, 2009 6:05 PM
Besides, Sean, Amy never polices "topics", which (to Patrick's apparent distress) is one of the reasons I hang out here. We can talk about whatever we want.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 28, 2009 6:18 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/28/im_a_foulsmelli.html#comment-1679527">comment from Crid [CridComment @ gmail]Besides, Sean, Amy never polices "topics", which (to Patrick's apparent distress) is one of the reasons I hang out here. We can talk about whatever we want.
And I love that you do! People basically drive within the lines most of the time, but you lose cred with everybody if you post boring crap or do as a guy used to do here - write in memo format.
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 6:32 PM
I've recently began thinking this website could use an ignore feature, sad really how one jackass ruins it for everyone else.
Maybe insted of an ignore feature place the "posted by" feature ABOVE the comment and then we can all just jump over BOTU comments before reading the first few lines of tripe
lujlp at November 29, 2009 12:28 AM
Either that, or software that listed the author of the comment at both the top and the bottom of the text. It would have to be both places to protect us. There are times where you'll be looking for the name in both places to assign credit or blame.
Crid at November 29, 2009 1:30 AM
Far, far Offtopic---
Let's say you wanted to know what time it was. That happens to everybody, right?
And let's say you wanted it to be big and clear on a web page that you could leave up for a long time... But that would mean the web page would have to continually update, so you'd always know what time it was accurately.
And let's say you liked pretty girls. (Hey- Nuthin' wrong with that! Am I right, people?)
And let's say you especially like Japanese girls. (Hey!- We're not here to judge, okay? Safe place, dude! Go ahead, get your needs met.)
And let's say you wanted to get a few personal details about some of those girls! (Okay by me, fella! Like, whatever!)
And let's say one of those details was blood type. (Listen, that's really your own business. Your need for that information is a personal matter, and I'd rather not be bothered with it anymore.)
Well, have I got a website for you!
Crid (cridcomment at gmail) at November 29, 2009 3:24 AM
I kinda miss Chuck[les]...
Eric at November 29, 2009 9:32 AM
Crid, first of all, I was joking around a bit--The White Peril is my blog, and I wrote the post Virginia very kindly tweeted. I thought that was kind of obvious from my earlier comment and my signature, but I should probably know by now that failing to ham up every jest on the intertubes with emoticons or something is asking for a misunderstanding.
"If someone spots a trend, will you insist that they list, by name and Social Security number, the intellectual habits of every fellow who's ever kissed a boy?"
No, but I don't see why I (or anyone else) shouldn't insist that you not try to have it both ways. You take Sullivan as evidence that "gay men" think this or that of motherhood, but not me as evidence that "gay men" think the opposite. You're as entitled to your confirmation bias as the rest of us, of course, but SSNs aside, I'm just going to guess that I know a lot more lefty gay men than you do, and I say that Sullivan is a wacko outlier, even among Palin's detractors. I don't know anyone who's followed his writing about Trig Palin who doesn't think it's a train wreck and a blight on Sullivan's career. (Of course, as far as I'm concerned, he's been blighting his career for much of this decade.)
And thanks for reassuring me that Amy was not going to come down on anyone's head for not sticking to the post topic, but I wasn't really worried about that. I was, in fact, responding to the very first words of your own comment ("And offtopic..."). I thought you were incorrect, and I still do. Like the rest of us, Sullivan has his neuroses. I have no desire to pry into them. I'm concerned with his behavior, which suggests that he thinks self-awareness and restraint are for other people.
At least you and I agree that my writing is fun. :) :) :)
Sean Kinsell at November 29, 2009 9:35 AM
> I kinda miss Chuck[les]...
Take it back, Eric.
________________________________
> You take Sullivan as evidence that
> "gay men" think this or that
Opal. Ease.
Opal-ease.
Oh, puh-leeeeeze....
First of all, I meant what I said about Sullivan up above. This is a guy who panders to popular thinking. His contrarianism never seems to fall (permanently) into the account of ideas unpopular to the majority of the chattering class, our media-Americans. You bet he represents gay men, and a whole lot of similarly ninny-fied straights.
> but not me as evidence that
>"gay men" think the opposite.
Secondly, I think small-minded Americans form a much tighter policy clusterfuck –whatever their preference– than do free-thinkers. Your complaint is exactly what I was talking about with the Lileks cite, and what's so revolting about those who'd claim to speak for the righteousness of gays, or women, or blacks, or the mentally retarded (or any subset of the throbbing human mass) which might righteously claim to have been oppressed: 'Hey, WAIT a minute! Your survey and identification of a particular trend in popular thought stopped just outside of MY beating heart, and is therefore illusory! What about mmeeeeeeeeee?'
You, personally, Sean, see through Sully's shenanigans. I think that's ducky! Good fer you, feller! But is less expected from any alert person?
Yes, I think there's a stereotype at work, and I think that stereotype has a basis in fact. I think there are a lot of gays who view the recent broad, explicit acceptance of gay life as certification that their own darling hearts and squirty responses are, and should be, the center of the universe and the basis of policy. This narcissism obviously isn't distinctively homosexual, as it's the oven of the divorce holocaust as well: People want to think it's all about them, and that a truly just culture would never ask them to to answer disappointment with stoicism.
They're on the wrong planet.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 29, 2009 1:49 PM
Well, I'm glad I won't have to share a "fligth" with Mr. Fernando too... and as for Sully, I wouldn't hold him out as a representative example of, well, anything.
Cousin Dave at November 30, 2009 7:40 AM
I read the name at the bottom before I read the post. Gives me an idea of what I'm getting before I jump on in.
And yes, sometimes I read the last few pages of a book before I get to the end. Life is short, and I need to know.
MonicaP at November 30, 2009 7:46 AM
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