I think it's an ego thing for men; they want to look like a big shot. Women don't care about looking like a big shot and I think they are more aware of day-to-day budgeting issues and what will suffer if they pick up the tab for a largish group.

Diana's right, I think buying a round or treating to dinner is part of a supposed masculinity. I don't think it's always because they're trying to look like a big shot (though that is definitely the case sometimes); I think it's so ingrained that it feels like that's what a man does. They don't drag home animals they've killed with a stick and a rock anymore, so they buy dinner. I don't mind it except when they start with the fisticuffs over who gets to pay or they make such a big deal out of the fact that they're paying. My friend's ex-boyfriend would most always treat us when we went out to our usual Mexican restaurant after work. It was usually five or six women and him or possibly one other boyfriend. At the very least, he'd put the pitchers of margaritas on his check. He wasn't trying to show off for us, not really, but he enjoyed being a man and buying dinner or drinks for the group. I assume my friend made it up to him in other ways.

If my friend (the math teacher) is with us, we can get one check because she'll figure out all of our portions for us in her head. Otherwise, my experience with groups of women is that they don't feel comfortable assuming that someone else is going to pay for them, and yet they often don't have enough in their budget to offer to pay for everyone else.

I know that if it's just me and one friend, I always offer to pay for both of us. But my budget is usually pretty tight, so I don't offer when the group is larger.

My brother picks up the check, whether his guests are all male, all female or mixed company. I don't think its an "ego" thing as much as a generosity thing--we grew up poor, and he's really grateful to be in a position where he can afford to treat his friends.

sitting here thinking about this, i cannot remember a SINGLE TIME that my friends or i ever asked for separate checks, so i have no idea who these women are.

Rosie O'Donnell said it best, in noting a fundamental difference. Basically, she said that whenever a group of women get together, other women are the enemy, especially when there's a beautiful one around - hiss, hiss!

But a pig-ugly man sitting at the bar will give Tom Selleck two thumbs up and a "Heyyy, Magnum!" when he comes in. They're on the same side.

So I'm not surprised you ladies find it necessary to fend for yourself. You're not done competing, ever, even to the point of owing for lunch. But I notice that more of you don't have any problem with taking a man's lunch money.

Radwaste, had some ugly dates lately? :)

This is interesting from the waitstaff point of view. I didn't realizee patrons were discussed for how they pay a check in addition to whether or not the tip was decent.

When I eat out at lunch, it's typically a business event and the host pays. Apparently the LW's experience is that most of the time women are not conducting business. Perhaps it's the industry I'm in or my city, but I see women doing this kind of business entertaining pretty frequently. Or perhaps I do business more often with women than the LW observes in her work.

For drinks or dinner, my gfs get a single check and split it amongst ourselves if we're so inclined. We're not particularly worried if it doesn't come out even. To be fair, we're more established in our careers, so budgeting isn't as critical as it was earlier.

I do notice that socially with groups of men, they glance at the check, start tossing $20s on the table and eventually somebody becomes the cshier for the group. With women someone becomes cashier before the money comes out.

I noticed this as well and figured women to be pretty anal about such things. I've even had some women be so nitpicky as to insist on adding up what the tip should be for the whole table and then dividing it up per person. (as if I needed help with that.)

I'm not going to be so arrogant as to claim I know why men don't worry about such things. I will ask my husband later, though. I do know that I've never noticed men to debate much about it. Unless it's friendly banter along the lines of "I got it last time, it's your turn." or "I'll get it, you paid for the cab ride."

I really should have read Dorris' comment before I added my own, because I think I was probably a bit unfair to my fellow ladies. She does make a good point about lunch for business vs pleasure- and I had not taken that into account. Women are more likely to eat out together as a group for social reasons. Men mostly find themselves in that situation when it's business related. Mixed company usually also involves business related lunches.

When I've eaten out for business related reasons (and only a handful of times was that with just women) I don't recall splitting the check... perhaps maybe one time. We were all collegues, however, with no bosses there and no host and/ or guest roles.

I'll have to ask my husband about men and their social dinner routines later today.

Well, having been on both sides of the check, so to speak, I have been with business people in mixed groups, where one person (male or female, doesn't matter) puts it on their credit card and then submits an expense report! I've done this myself. When out with just girlfriends having drinks and/or dinner, we'll usually divide the check and throw in a little extra to cover the tip. Sometimes we throw in a little more than we have to, if the service was particularly good. Having also been a waitress, it is SO much easier to put everything down on ONE check as opposed to writing separate checks, especially if people don't say before the meal that's how they're going to pay. But I've had more women groups than men ask for separate checks, more often than not. Rarely have the guys ever asked for separate checks, no matter the size of the group.

I wonder how that holds for couples going out. I've noticed more lately that with a group of couples, someone will immediately ask for separate checks. I always feel badly for the waiters having to tally it all up separately. Maybe it's the economy because it used to be that we'd get one check and split it up in private.

That's what I try to do with my girlfriends if we go out socially. We'll all throw in $20-$30 and that's usually enough. I don't recall anyone asking for separate checks.

If it's something related to my business, I always pay the full tab.

"This is interesting from the waitstaff point of view. I didn't realizee patrons were discussed for how they pay a check in addition to whether or not the tip was decent."

Are you kidding? Patrons are discussed for everything. Usually it does all circle back to the tip (the more ways a check is split the less you're likely to make on a tip). But servers get to be really good observers of human nature really fast. They'll discuss payment patterns, tipping patterns, how patrons dress, smell, talk, and everything else as they pass through the kitchen.

I've always though TSA could learn a lot about profiling from waitstaff at a decent restaurant. The following held generally held true in my little corner of the world when I was waiting tables (Generally true = 80%):

* One man in a group will pay. If they're regulars then you'll notice who pays rotates.
* When men bicker over the check you're probably going to get a good tip
* Women will split the check. The more scrupulous they are about where the pennies go, the worse your tip gets.
* Red Hat ladies are *the* worst tippers. Expect a 5% tip.

The way we men operate, one person gets the check this time, another person the next time. I am not sure there's much "showing off" just being generous with the expectation someone else will be generous back to you.

I don't know why people ask for seperate checks so often, if it's just 2 checks it's not so bad, but I've seen people divide it up into 8 or 10 checks, or to pay with multiple credit cards because no one has cash. I have always thought to do so is incredibly rude and an imposition on the wait staff, they have enough to do without spending an extra 10 minutes separating out our bill.

It's quite simple. I don't buy my friends' dinners because I cannot afford to.

I think women in general are more frugal when it comes to money. They're paid less than men, and it's more expensive to be a woman. Men can buy underwear in packages of three for ten bucks. A woman will be paying 50 dollars for a good bra.

Women buy makeup and various feminine products. So, I think this trend comes from having less disposable income.

The only time I have seen people pick up a dinner or lunch tab for the group is when it is work related. Other than that we (and that's men AND women) either ask for separate bills or we split 1 bill after the fact.

As for being "rude" to ask the wait staff to add up separate tabs...I disagree. It's part of their job to serve clients. Most places are done by computer anyways so it's tedious but easy. Providing a good service...that's what tips are for.

Barbie summed it up so nicely:

"Math is hard."

In the 10 years I was in restaurants I saw this pattern in everyone at every level, Village Inn to The Golden Fork. I would call it a casual thing, when guys or a mixed group was in, they would divide the check by rounding up. ie. app - 7.99, main course, 15.98, desert 4.99, 2 beers 8.98, becomes 8,16,5, and 10 and round up to a total of $48-$50 including tax and tip. So that group does throw cash in the kitty until the check and an acceptable tip are met. The women only group will add up each persons with a calculator even, if they do not have separate checks, and add for the tax and tip.
I will disagree with the low tip generality for women, that I see above. The lowest tipping groups were smaller subsets. Women Teachers, the worst, closely followed by salesmen.
YMMV

When I go out with my guy friends one guy will have the check in front of him and we will all give him what are meal cost plus a few extra dollars for the tip. If mine cost $7-$8 I'll give him a ten, another guys costs $12 and he give him $15.

Women will split a check down to the penny.

Women in general-in general ladies- are more petty than men.

Back in the old days, when fish still had bicycles and I was just a tadpole, our extended family would maintain a rotating presence at Aunt Molly's beach property for a few months in the summer. My cousins & I were spear fishing maniacs, and we fed the tribe. It was primal. It felt so very right.

And it's exactly the same right I feel when picking up the check for my daughter-in-law's birthday lobster feast. Because I can. (Did she HAVE to order the 4-pounder? OW!)

Seeing this as "trying to be a big shot" devalues every good human impulse. It's not just the misandry. Pissy cynicism, what a way to live. Feh.

--
phunctor

I just saw plutosdad's comment. Yes! And I think what's going on is the establishment and maintenance of a reciprocity trust pool.
--
phunctor

I think it must be that men are making alot more money because of the wage gap...women feel they need to pinch pennies more while men can just throw the old greenbacks around...

Ummmmm...not really.

Seriously though, as a former waiter I have to say that groups of women are the absolute worst tippers. The richer they look the less they tip. Of course, groups of guys are not so great tippers either, but you usually get more because they don't count things to the penny and tend to round up very "liberally".

Absolute best people to wait on? That would be a tie between old ladies and asian people. Geez, sometimes the mother of the asian family would clean their own table before the bus bus boy got there!!! But they are always quiet, respectful, and show manners.

With good friends, it's usually a group of just 2 or 3, so one of us will frequently pay and it averages out over time. A larger group, 1) I don't know everyone as well to the point of wanting to treat them or treat me and 2) I can't afford that large of a check. Can't speak for men, but I know I am worried about the budget with kids to care for, and imagine most other women are too. Women tend to be the budgeters in married couples/families, so maybe the nickels and dimes just aren't on men's radar?

In college (when no girl has any problem getting a guy to pay, dating or no) I was the only chic who would toss her credit card into the hat to see who got stuck with the bill. It did smart the one time mine got pulled, though.....

whether i'm in mixed company or not, if there's more than two of us, we are asked if we would like separate checks. since I never have cash, I always accept. i've often have had a server wash us try to separate the bill amongst ourselves and offer to split it... I have an app that does it easily so it doesn't take much time, but less than a minute later the server will come back with separate checks.

it might be moreso that men carry cash?

In my experience, except for business lunches, it's been the way Dorris and David M. described: The guys get one check, everyone starts throwing bills at that guy, and call it "close enough", instead of worrying about small change. I can't speak for women, but they do seem to be more concerned about being exact in their responsibility for the bill.

Men are hardwired to be providers, women are hardwired to be caretakers-simple as that, and these attitudes spill over to non-romantic relationships as well. (Think about the difference in how women and men take care of their friends after a break up.) Also, I think that men and women derive value from being generous in different ways-for example, women volunteer more.

Also, once the paying vs splitting has been established as a group norm, it's hard to go against it for fear of looking petty or stingy. A man might prefer to just pay for his own meal instead of subsidizing his friends' more expensive meals, but decides that it's worth losing 5 or 10 or 20 dollars to avoid looking cheap. A similar analogy would be how you often see a group of women all eating salads. One of those women might have wanted a hamburger and a milkshake, but decided to conform to group norms rather than looking like the "fat" eater.

interesting comments... of all the different groups I belong to, and business, we always ask for separate checks, but UP FRONT. If we fail to do it frist, then we split at the table. I pretty much figure that most resturaunts have computer POS terminals anyway, so it isn't as big a deal as it once was... however.

er, yeah, many, many peole have a phone with them, and for many years phones have calculators on them, so? QED. Still in large groups, guys do often make a generous guesstimate, IFF they are using cash. I always figured that generosity was kinda a form of kharma. It doesn't hurt to round up.

I think that using plastic causes you to be more interested in having separate checks. You have to be more precise with plastic.

Dunno that the gender differences can be chalked up to frugality, since there are so many intangibles. Good service isn't measurable to the penny, nor is a smile or observation. When you eat out, the percentage of the product you are buying is lower, but there is more service.

Maybe I look at it differently, because I don't eat out more than mybe once a week, if that? Also? I wonder if the gender of the server vs your own comes in to play?

I don't know - a lot of my friends earn less than me so in small groups I will tend to pick up the check regardless - especially for my female friends (yeah, yeah, I know, but it's ingrained). In cases where it's a large group we usually chuck in the approximate amount each plus a bit to make it up. I don't think anyone I know would ever ask for separate checks - male or female.

On the other hand, I do think men tip bigger. Particularly to impress dates of course, but in general as well.

SwissArmyD
I wonder if the gender of the server vs your own comes in to play?

At least for me - yes. I definitely overtip cute women :)

I do remember (vaguely) one time when I was part of a large group of guys and we asked to split the bill. But it was lunch before a stag night with 30 odd guys and we racked up over $3,500. So they didn't have much choice but to let us pay individually with our credit cards. But we just divided the bill equally, no arguing over who had what. We tacked on a fair bit to compensate for the groom vomiting all over the table...

How about tipping? I alway tip 20%, sometimes more if the service is excellent. Having worked as a waitress, I know how crucial that tip is, so even when I get lousy service, I usually still tip 20%. I figure he/she is probably "in the weeds", as they say, and I remember what that's like.

However, not long ago, we had a terrible waitress. She got my fiance's drink order wrong, but he didn't say anything. Then, the second round, she got the drink right but proceeded to spill it on him. She got our food order partially wrong too, and brought mine out ahead of his. So, he sat there, while I had food, with a spilled drink on him. She never even replaced the drink she spilled!

I called the restaurant after that and let them know she wasn't the best waitress. As a business owner, I would want to know if someone respresenting my business was that incompetent.

They sent us a voucher for a free meal, but my fiance is afraid to go back, fearing she'll poison us for getting her into trouble.

Yes, Amy. The Red Hat Society is the group of older women who wear red hats and purple.

It comes from the Jenny Joseph poem, warning.

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.

They travel and go out to do things. We tried to get my mother-in-law to join so she'd have a reason to get out more and a group of friends her own age.

For me (a guy), it pretty much boils down to making life easier for the waitstaff. If we get a single check, either one of us will pick it up for the whole group or we'll divide it up roughly between us (usually straight division unless someone had the prime rib and a bottle of wine). The two or three dollars more or less isn't worth the hassle of having the waiter/waitress tally up a half dozen separate bills.

On this subject, like most any other, I really can't tell you what the ladies are thinking.

My friends and I regularly do a girls' night out, and we never, ever ask for separate checks. We divide it evenly, or perhaps once in a while we collect a little less from someone who just got a salad or whatever. We wouldn't dream of asking for 10 separate checks.

Like others on this thread, I often find myself reading articles like this one and wondering "who the heck are these people"? I'm beginning to think that I just have a really freaky group of friends (don't get me wrong, though -- I'm really grateful for it).

"Elle, are "Red Hat ladies" those women who have some kind of group where they wear red and purple?"

Yup, that's them. They're picky, demanding, sour, unpleasant, and tip for crap.

Every other group of people had exceptions to the tipping "rules" except for the Red Hat Ladies. It was always 5% for them. Half of them usually ordered hot tea with honey as well. Complete pain in the ass.

My experiences:

Usually if a friend and I go grab food we alternate who picks up the tab...or whoever didn't pay has to buy the first few rounds...

Last time the wife and I went out the waiter we had had just finished up closing out a bachelorette party of 17 separate checks...

One time I was in an airport bar with a few of the guys and the comment from the bartender was "oh, we don't mind military in here at all, you don't tip that much but you always clean up after yourselves".

Still, I would never want a job that depends on the whims of the customers like that...

My friends and I (male and female) are, for the most part, broke college students, and no one can afford to pick up the whole tab. I'd feel really uncomfortable if someone did this unless I knew for sure they could totally afford it. Sometimes we'll do seperate checks, sometimes we'll all pitch in.

I've noticed that when a large group of people tries to each pay for what they ate on a shared check, everyone seems to underestimate what they owe on tax and tip, thus the money invariably comes up short yet everyone still feels like they overpaid. The nice thing about seperate checks is that it's easier to see exactly what you owe and to tip appropriately, and no one gets away with freeloading. It probably ends up with the waitress getting a higher tip as well.

When its just my best friend and I (both women) we take turns treating though we usually fight for the check and claim that the other treated last time. My friend has more money and tried to be nice and treat but I told her that made me feel bad and that I wouldn't go unless I could afford to reciprocate. We sometimes added a few more girlfriends but never ordered separate checks. We evenly divided the bill and tip. Only one friend routinely nitpicked. She would order appetizers and extras but then be annoyed over a $7 glass of wine. It made it tough to be around her because she had more money than all of us combined but would itemize down to the water if it worked in her favor. The point for us was not who ate more but that it was nice for us to get together and have a good time.

Getting American women to pay at a restaurant is about as easy as getting Liberace to hump Raquel Welch. Especially now. There is just something wrong with the situation, from all directions--certainly the women think so.
Women are known as lousy tippers.
Most American women lead lives of relentless self-indulgence, yet think of themselves as martyrs. They have that in common with the American right-wing.

Just got done talking to my mom about this. She and her "church ladies" go out once a month for ladies' night out, and she says they each write down what they order on their own piece of paper, add it up, then add 20%, and give the money to whoever is the "hostess" for that month. They also pass around a little zippered pouch, the "kitty", they call it, and everyone puts in a dollar or so, and if they end up short on the bill, they take it from the kitty. Usually, she says, they end up with more than what they need for the bill and tip without having to take it from the kitty. Sometimes, someone will invite someone that they know doesn't have the money, but needs a night out and some support for whatever issues they're having with family or health, etc., and the kitty is used to pay for that person. Kind of nice, actually. She asked me if I wanted to go with them next time! o.O

The explanation is very simple.

Men are pack animals. Women are not.

Men hate being ostracized from the pack.

In order to avoid that, men must seen as being "stand-up" pack members.

Consequently, men will make certain they are seen as paying at least their share.

I object to the comment that women teachers are the worst tippers- I'm definitely an exception to that statement. It's always 20%, and more if the server is especially good.
I had a female friend and former waitress, who was a lousy tipper. I'd put down a very fair amount , she'd check it out, then casually toss 5 -10% into my pile, so It would like we were both cheap bitches.
I think the following comments are also quite true-----

It's quite simple. I don't buy my friends' dinners because I cannot afford to.

Posted by: Pirate Jo at April 20, 2010 6:36 AM

I think women in general are more frugal when it comes to money. They're paid less than men, and it's more expensive to be a woman. Men can buy underwear in packages of three for ten bucks. A woman will be paying 50 dollars for a good bra.

Women buy makeup and various feminine products. So, I think this trend comes from having less disposable income.

Posted by: Patrick at April 20, 2010 6:50 AM

Maybe it depends also on the amount of income. In spite of popular belief, teachers don't bring in tons of money, especially considering the time they put into their job, and the personal income they PUT INTO TEACHING SUPPLIES! chew on that one. Any educator who says teaching is easy,and has a lot of free time, most likely sucks.
Also single people in general spend more money "per capita" than married couples. There are many variables to consider.
I know I'm a good tipper, and not a pain-in -the ass to wait on.

I had to comment on this. If I go out to eat with someone, and they pull out a calculator, I never go out with them again, and I tend to not want to be their friend. I've known people like this, and the calculator seems to be a metaphor for your friendship. She will always put down the bare minimum, and it's up to me to fill in the rest. Also, with the few people I knew like this, we were always uneven. I always felt like I gave more, and they always felt like I never pulled my weight.

Nothing is better than being able to say to a friend, "I've got it." And it's even more wonderful when they grab the check the next time.

I'm telling you, you can learn a lot about someone if you dine out with them, from the way they treat the waiter to the way they handle the inevitabilities of a crowded restaurant and an overworked waiter.

I think it depends on the type of event and the group. We go for wings every Wednesday. People come and go at different times and there's often new people (friends of friends). Group bills in these situations often seem to come in short and whoever is left at the end of the night has to cover the extra. Fortunately, our waitress knows all the regulars by name after all these years and just automatically splits things up into couples/families.

If its a sit down dinner with people we know well, we generally just split evenly. But even then, if there's friends of friends along, seperate bills prevents any awkwardness afterwards.

I think men do tend to operate on an "it all evens out in the end" mentality. Maybe it's a leftover from the primeval hunting pack mentality. Sometimes your spear kills the buffalo and sometimes the other guy's does, but you share the meat so the hunting pack survives.

I know I've gone out with friends and picked up the tab or had them pick up the tab with no thought to sorting out the details. And usually it does even out. No one wants to go out with or be known as the guy who nitpicks the bill. But if it doesn't even out, even the most generous guy eventually orders separate checks when out with the guy who doesn't chip in (and is able to).

Perhaps women, as gatherers, didn't see it as a pack survival issue if another woman failed to find enough vegetables so pooling the day's harvest didnt' become standard.

If I go out to eat with someone, and they pull out a calculator, I never go out with them again, and I tend to not want to be their friend.

I assume you mean "pull out a calculator to split the bill." I always use a calculator to figure 20% because I am just that bad at math and don't want to undertip. When I go out with friends, we take turns treating. Whoever did the inviting pays, as is proper for a host/hostess.

One point in favor of separate checks would be that I am a good tipper, and if I'm in a group of people that don't tip well, then pooling your money makes the whole group look cheap. With a separate check, the server knows that you tipped well.

I know that I get better service at the restaurants I frequent because I tip well. I get recognized by the staff and get extra attention because I never cheap out on the tip. If I get really excellent service, I not only tip very well, but I pull the manager aside and commend the server. The managers are always surprised--apparently most people only call them aside for complaints.

I guess I really am living in a freaky world. The women I know are, if anything, better tippers than the men!

Recently a mixed male/female group of us ordered food in for a movie night. We got in an argument about how much to tip the delivery guy. The guys mostly thought a couple of bucks was plenty. The women mostly thought we should tip what you'd tip a waiter (in NYC, that's 18-20%). We argued that the delivery dudes here aren't paid much by the hour, and they have to deliver the food on a bicycle all the way to your front door, not just drop it at a table. (FYI, the women won the argument.)

Where are all of these cheap, petty, gold-digging women you all are meeting all the time? Remind me to stay away from that place.

Hey Beth, here's an easy way to figure 20% tip:

If the meal price is say, $27.87, move the decimal one place to the left. (The number should get smaller is a way to remember which way to move the decimal.) That gives you $2.787. Drop the last number so it looks like a regular dollar amount, $2.78. That's ten percent, double it for 20 percent. Even easier, round the ten percent figure up to the next whole dollar ($3.00) before you double and you never have to do anything but the easiest math, and you never look like a lousy tipper.

From Beth: I assume you mean "pull out a calculator to split the bill." I always use a calculator to figure 20% because I am just that bad at math and don't want to undertip.

It's easy. Round to the nearest ten, and multiply by two. For example: $27.00 tab. Round up to $30, 3x2=$6; $24.00 tab, round down to $20, 2x4=$4. You'll always leave between 15-20%, sometimes a little more. Mary Q beat me to it, but this is less zeros. Throw another $1 or so on for really good service, and servers will start to recognize you at your favorite haunts.

I've been a server on and off since I was 16. I'm a really good tipper, but very critical of service (I start at 20% and go up from there). I am female, and I have noticed that when I'm out with girlfriends, we do usually split the check. I will usually let the server know up front, but I'm perfectly happy to say something like, "Put $20 on this card and the rest on that card." When I'm out with a guy, romantically or not, it's usually more of a "I got this one, you get the next," kind of thing. I chalk this up to a difference between the sexes, and maybe it is because women are more used to competing with each other.

And from Peggy C: If I get really excellent service, I not only tip very well, but I pull the manager aside and commend the server. The managers are always surprised--apparently most people only call them aside for complaints.

Thank you! Not enough people do that. I can give my best service to every table, but believe me, if one meal comes out cold, that's generally the only one my boss will hear about. Cold mashed potatoes and hot mashed potatoes look the same. If you get cold ones, all that means is that I didn't stick my finger in your food.

Tangentially, if something is wrong, please don't suffer in silence and then take it out on me in the tip. This is something that may also be a difference in the sexes. Most men will let you know right away if something isn't up to their standards. Women, on the other hand, tend to put up with it, but complain to their companions at the table. I am more than happy to fix something if it was wrong and I know about it. In my experience, most servers are.

Threadjack alert!

"In spite of popular belief, teachers don't bring in tons of money, especially considering the time they put into their job, and the personal income they PUT INTO TEACHING SUPPLIES! chew on that one."

Nothing to chew on. These are assertions. Assertions are not facts.

If you could actually gather and deploy facts, people would find you much more convincing. Problem is, my friend, you might find facts supporting your position wanting. But I suspect you will got to the NEA site, obtain their heavily massaged data and post links.

I must be living in a cave. In the midwest, in a smaller town (pop.= 130,000), I tip 15% and round up. I think maybe once out of hundreds of trips to restaurants did I ever tip less for lousy service. Crummy service with a sincere apology goes a long way and is not penalized in the tip. We mostly go to lower priced franchise joints. Am I a crummy tipper? Guess I just gotta know. And in these places, there is no way I would complain if it involves sending the food back to the kitchen. I've heard horror stories about what the cook will do it.

>>If you get cold ones, all that means is that I didn't stick my finger in your food.

For some reason, I liked that quip.

This is another cultural shift when one lives in another culture. The thought of a very clean waitress who follows hand washing rules, sticking her very clean finger in my mashed potatoes simply doesn't bother me any more. Spitting in it would, even though I would not expect to actually get sick.

Most people simply aren't that filled with bacteria and deadly germs of many kinds. At least not in the US. Heh, heh.

A few years ago, my best friend sent her son to Canada to learn English. He brought back a Canadian newspaper, which told of farm run-off which got into a city water system. Several people died, and others were maimed. We joked that here the same contamination and no one would be late to work the next day. Except it probably isn't as much of a joke as it sounds.

Now they are finding kids get terrible syndromes in the clean nations because they are too clean, and their autoimmune system gets out of whack.

If you could actually gather and deploy facts, people would find you much more convincing. Problem is, my friend, you might find facts supporting your position wanting. But I suspect you will got to the NEA site, obtain their heavily massaged data and post links.

Posted by: Spartee at April 20, 2010 4:10 PM

Naah, I'm not going hunting for facts, because I'm too lazy as a tired retired teacher. I just know that is true of my elem teacher friends, about the money they spend . You're right- that's an assertion, not a fact I just went off on a rant because someone said teachers were lousy tippers, and I know I'm not. Excuse me. Could you put that dressing on the side? and take your finger out of my water glass.

Yes, Beth! Even if she's just figuring out the tip. Would it be so horrible to give more than 20%? Servers don't get paychecks. They get tips. I've heard of servers getting salary checks for .01 cents, and that is because the government figures their tips into their paycheck. So yes. Just put down a little too much money (especially if your tea is always being refilled, and your meal was the perfect temperature.) I have never been a waitperson (you'd hate me as your waitress), but these are things that you as a diner patron should know.

And Beth, I'm not upset or saying that with anger, it's jsut something I feel very strongly about. (Just realized my comment sounds a little hostile.)

Spartee, I'm not a teacher, but some of my friends and family members are. What Salorse says about teachers not being paid much, putting in lots of time outside teaching hours putting together lesson plans, etc., and spending their own money on supplies is absolutely true. And actually, it's pretty common knowledge that it's true. Where have you been? I'll bet you don't know a single teacher, do you?

Men seek status around women and amongst other men in order to gain potential mates. Women do not need status to procure mates, and therefor do not seek it. They do not need show off their wealth as individuals (good birthing hips and supple breasts are enough). Instead, women need to keep track of their own material wealth. Now if one of the women were married to a man with high status or wealth, she might offer to pay as a status seeking proxy. But generally, women are "weaker" and have less tolerance for risk due to less direct access to material wealth (busy making babies and all that).

Men play the top-dog/ego-maniac/alpha male, in order to attract mates. Women have better things to do with their money than compete with other women.

From Amy Alkon: Kelli, thanks, I learned a few things I'm going to incorporate from your comment.

That's awesome! You have no idea how many times I've quoted/referred people to you when someone has asked me for advice. If I can be of service (no pun intended), that makes me happy. :)

In addition to being a server, I'm also a laid off middle school teacher due to budget cuts. I feel somewhat obligated to comment on the teacher pay thing. As a beginning teacher, I started at 32K/year. As a (damn good) server, I made 40K/year working part time. Granted, I had better benefits when I was a teacher, but I saw maybe 27K of my pay. The hours are better teaching, but the money and the stress sure ain't.

Thank you, Kelli and Gail! Kelli, I'll bet you're a damn good server! I always admire and respect those who work hard in their field (or restaurant,
office, etc).
I know I went off on an off-topic rant, but I couldn't let it go!

@lauren: "Women have better things to do with their money than compete with other women."

But apparently not with their time...?

"@lauren: "Women have better things to do with their money than compete with other women.""

Better way of putting it: women have better ways to use their money to compete with other women.

Paying for dinner won't get you status. Having the latest designer bag will.

Obviously I've never been in an all-male group. I've been in an all but one male group. I've never noticed a difference between men and women in any group... people pay for what they bought. Usually it's like, "Oh, I got the spaghetti for $7.95 and a soda for $1.50 and a dessert for $6.00" So I'll put in 10, 2, and 7, and a buck or two for good measure. And everyone else does it And if we come in a couple bucks short everyone puts something in. We're usually over, not under, though. It always works out. This is both with men and women.

... and who are these people obsessed with designer bags? Where do they live? Do you actually know people like that or do you just watch a lot of Sex and the City type shows?

"These are assertions. Assertions are not facts."

Good point in general there Spartee. This whole thread, from Amy's initial "It seems the requests for separate checks tend to separate along gender lines" comment is not based on any FACTS at all. A few waiters making an observation does not a fact make!!

Gail: "I'll bet you don't know a single teacher, do you?"

Wow, are you every wrong, lady...

Partial list of teachers I know:

S/O
Mother
Uncle
Aunt
3 cousins
Sister in Law
Brother
lifetime friend's wife

And that is just off the top of my head. I know more.

Now, can you gather any facts? I have had this discussion with people before, and in addition to my familial anecdotal observations, I tend to take note of things like the median wage of workers in given states, college degrees, hours worked per year, etc. to note how teachers in most states seem to obtain a premium over what they would get in the private sector. Well at least *public school* teachers do. Teachers in private schools seem to not obtain that same premium.

But apparently not with their time...?

It can be fun for women to get together. Sharing info, laughing, bonding.

Shannon phrased it better than I did. And I'm sure there are even better way of phrasing the whys of splitting or not splitting the check. I'm pretty sure the theories claim that women do not use material resources to attract male mates. Women will, however, pull and pluck and suck and paint themselves all day long to attract male mates. Paying for some nip and tuck will get a woman farther in this world than paying for another woman's lunch.

Amy - yes, your original post was very well worded. I have just been observing that some people are reacting as if it's been stated as a fact. One could just as easily conclude that the writer of the letter (a reader of yours) may some kind of observation bias and only notices the instances of payment behavior that supports the bias.

Spartee -
Even though I don't agree with you, I enjoyed your responses on here. You are intelligent and funny (heavily massaged data- Isn't all data
massaged!?)
You know many teachers, and have obviously argued with them.
Many generalizations were made about men/women tippers, and they were all assertions too.

This one made my blood boil though
"Women are known as lousy tippers.
Most American women lead lives of relentless self-indulgence, yet think of themselves as martyrs. They have that in common with the American right-wing." I hate mean spirited comments, and this one wins the prize, especially since it compares women with "American right -wing".
When people can argue with humor and intelligence, that's convincing. Was it William Buckley who was so damn smart and funny, though I rarely agreed with him?

Only big surprise . . . the delightful and relentlessly optimistic BOTU is a lefty. Not that misogyny is a prerogative of the right by any means, but it's always a little surprising when someone is (assumedly) in favor of equal pay for equal work, against discrimination, and suchlike (basic lefty values) but goes out of their way to exclude women from all that. Certainly it was thus in the '60s, when the men did the protesting and the ladies washed their dashikis and stir-fried their tofu, but today? Throwback-a-rific.

Coming from a generation where the norm was having a stay-at-home mom, rather than a working mom, I think it's something that started because our moms had a limited weekly budget/allowance and often had to watch it right down to the penny. Women learn from their mothers, and many of us just kept up the tradition without ever giving it a thought as to why it's done that way.

I wonder if there's a difference between women who work and don't work. I mean, if you see a group of women out to lunch on a weekday, that means they don't have jobs so the money they're spending is their husbands. So maybe some women feel uncomfortable spending money on other people that they themselves didn't earn? Just a thought, no idea if there's a correlation.

I would say, in my experience, this is more true of OLDER women...maybe that's just older women who grew up poor though and/or lived a good portion of their adult life that way. My mother and grandmother will add things up to the exact amount and it drives my dad nuts but it also drives me nuts(a women).

With most of the people I know (men or women) we don't really have the means to pay for lunch for a group of friends. We don't usually ask for separate checks though unless it's a huge group and there are "couple/family parties" of 2,3,4, whatever. 17 separate checks seems ridiculous though...is it that hard to say my meal was $15 and the 2 drinks I had were $7 a piece...and add it up "vaguely".

"I think women in general are more frugal when it comes to money."

Is that why they have 20 pairs of shoes in the cupboard?

Seriously, I've met/dated some women who are frugal and some who were just wanted to spend spend spend. Same with men. I'm not sure one can generalise at all on this point.

"Men play the top-dog/ego-maniac/alpha male, in order to attract mates. Women have better things to do with their money than compete with other women."

Of course women also compete with one another to attract mates; I'm not sure how you can see this as a male thing. Apart from being instinctual, it would also be highly irrational for women not to compete for better quality in mate choice. Perhaps you're saying they don't spend money in order to compete ... but then what's with the entire female cosmetics and fashion industries? Women spend *a lot* to compete with one another for better mates --- it's just not the *act* of spending in itself that elevates their status, as it might be with males.

my experience with groups of women is that they don't feel comfortable assuming that someone else is going to pay for them

That discomfort quickly disappears when a man is paying. Why could that be?

Perhaps you're saying they don't spend money in order to compete ... but then what's with the entire female cosmetics and fashion industries? Women spend *a lot* to compete with one another for better mates

But there is a big difference. Men spend money on women. Women spend money on themselves. Take from that what you will.

I'm a guy, don't have a clue about women's groups. Guy's don't sweat the small stuff. Waitresses get bigger tips than waiters. Quality of service counts, at least as much as cute. Cute and bitchy can sometimes get a very small tip. In the group setting some will argue in her favor, the less sensitive will say "Tip, I'll give you a tip, don't be a bitch."

We know we're getting "worked" for the tip. If the girl does it with grace and humor and keeps the glasses full all is well. Note good service translates as keeping the glasses full.

On teacher pay, In my state we have grade school teachers with seniority grossing $75.00/hr. As a child I suspected some of my teachers weren't up to speed. I grew up in a small school district with a very good academic reputation.

I had maybe 1/3 of my classmates for the duration. We were divided roughly speaking into 3 tiers by ability. The ones who became teachers were the middle of the middle. My childhood suspicians were correct.

I've sent 2 kids through the local school system which is well rated in the state. The grammar, spelling, and writing skills of the faculty are embarrassing.

@Diane: I think it's an ego thing for men; they want to look like a big shot. Women don't care about looking like a big shot and I think they are more aware of day-to-day budgeting issues and what will suffer if they pick up the tab for a largish group.
______________

Oh, so men are generous to others because they have an ego problem and are ignorant of budget issues. Nice.

Do you demand separate checks when you go on a date, you know, so you don't feed his ego problem and allow him to think he's a big shot? Or do you not mind the generosity when you are benefiting? It's only if a man benefits that there must be something wrong with it?

I have no problem with women asking for separate checks. No one should owe ore be entitled to anyone or anything. But your twisting yourself into pretzels to argue it is somehow a virtue on the part of women and a problem on the part of the men. You'd probably be the first to accuse a man of sexism who did the same (perhaps if I pointed out that women are more likely to be catered to than do the catering, which is a fact).

Since, contrary to some people's opinions, mind's can't be read, you should stick with judging behavior not possible motives. If someone is generous and picks up the tab, the appropriate response is "thank you."

This man bad woman good thing gets old.

Brother. This is a mystery?

Men have the nature of providers. We are fathers and husbands and that's what fathers and husbands do. You almost have to be programmed out of it, which, given our self-centered, progressive, therapy society has happened alot. A man who is not a father or husband had better watch out. He'd better find a substitute.

We like to give what we earn, even indiscriminately. It provides meaning for our lives. Otherwise we are just selfish pigs. Why is it men don't buy clothes? This is the way it should be, despite feminist stupidity.

And most women watch their men and ensure that her man's nature of providing is applied only to the family. So she, who normally protects the resouces, is going to give them away?

"Women tend to be the budgeters in married couples/families, so maybe the nickels and dimes just aren't on men's radar?"

Thanks. That was good for a laugh.

With regard to the statements about men paying as a status thing:

Have you ever heard what housewives in nice areas talk about ... all ... day ... long?

They alternative between feeling great when they have something better than the other houswife (bigger house, bigger car, more expensive shoes) and being envious and nasty when they are on the receiving end.

And this is ALL they do, with short interruptions to talk about going shopping and trying on shoes.

Here's the kicker, though: The superficial men who are trying to show status are usually at least earning it on their own.

The superficial women (and they DO exist) are doing it off the work of men, being complete parasites on top of being superficial dolts.

I'm not sure that sounds any better for the women, and it's going to be difficult to shoehorn that into the reigning paradigm of WOMAN-GOOD MAN-BAD.

Men tend to think more about others and their convenience espescially when the others happen to be unknowns with whom no enemity exists. Women on the other hand expect to be served all the time and expect unknown people to work more to provide convenience to the women. Men probably pay a single cheque to minimize inconvenience to the wait staff while women give a damn about inconvenience to anyone. Even while driving, if you find someone in a normal sized car or an SUV entering your lane pretty close ahead of you thereby forcing you to slow down fast to avoid an accident, 9 out of 10 times, it would be a woman and not a man because somehow women seem to feel entitled that the motorist in that lane should slow down for her while she gives a damn about entering the lane at the right time without causing inconvenience to the motorist.

Tom Leykis said it best:

"Women are the cheapest creatures on earth."

I find it typical, but not interesting, that most of the explanations for why men pick up checks a lot more than women are denigrating to men.

Next: what's wrong with men that more of them die in mine accidents than women.

Because women are high maintenance.

When in line at the checkout counter, women are more likely to pay with exact change. Men will pay with paper money, and just pocket the change. A woman will rationalize it by thinking they're saving the cashier from making change, but in reality, they don't want to carry the extra change. With the transaction, the focus fixates on the woman, and everyone else waiting in line fades...not much thought is given to how long it is taking to dig through the change purse to find the right about of nickles, dimes, & pennies. A man wants to get through the transaction as quickly & efficiently as possible...not only for himself, but not to delay anyone else in line either. It is certainly much faster for everyone for the cashier with everything organized in the cash drawer to make the change.

The same is true in the restaurant. Men don't want to keep themselves, or the rest of the party waiting. They'll "round-up" and toss in the cash, not really because it's easier...but because it's faster (because it's easier). When a man picks-up the check for the entire party...it's not about "showing-off." The gift he is giving is not the money...it's the most expensive of everything...it's time. He's giving the gift of not having the hassle of figuring out things to a penny, and each person individually dealing with the waitstaff.

It's like holding the door open for another...usually a woman with a bag, etc... Not because the woman isn't strong enough to open the door herself...but because the kindness he's giving is the lack of hassle...the gift of comfort & ease.

That's what men appreciate most, more than money & things...it's comfort & ease...and that's what they're giving at the end of a good time of conversation and fellowship.

A man would rather be on time, and not keep the host waiting, and have a couple of things out of place. A woman would rather have everything in place than to show up on time.

When I eat out with guy friends, we generally eat about the same amount. (And sometimes even order the same items!) We usually split a single check.

When I eat out with a woman (not often), I offer to divvy up the single check based on what was ordered because maybe she ordered a salad and I got salmon. I do the math in my head. (I'm good at math.)

When we eat out with other families, I often offer to pay the entire check, especially if we haven't seen each other recently. Sometimes, the other family also offers. I can't say if there is a pattern of who pays, but I don't argue about it, because that's what my Chinese parents did with their friends and I found it annoying.

As for divvying up a large group check based on the orders (e.g. a group lunch with co-workers), I noticed that we often came out short when I was in my 20s. It rarely happens in my 50s. I think 20-somethings don't have enough experience to remember to include the drink/refill cost/extra cost for a substitute/extra plate/appetizer, etc. 50-somethings not only remember all the costs but also kick in a few extra dollars just in case. I do this, and I notice other 50-somethings doing it too. When I was 25, there probably weren't enough 50 yr olds to cover for the rest of us.

This is easy. They're being cheap.

Simple reason: Women, on average, have more anal-ness and mistrust of others than men. They also are more passive-aggressive. I would like to mention another thing about this "picking up the tab" thing. ALOT of the time with men it's not that someone is paying for everything. Someone pays and then everyone just tosses some cash his way. It doesn't get broken down to the dollar but "ballparking" is generally accepted, no whining over a couple dollars here and there. Regarding the passive-aggressive thing. Say Tom has to go across the street to the ATM to get money for his lunch. Well, I might just pay his part to save him the inconvenience. Now, after a few days, if Tom hasn't paid me back, I might be like, "Hey D*ckhead, you still owe me $10". No big deal, not taken as some personal confrontation. Women, on the other hand, tend to suck at straight, direct talk. She might ask in her journal how to go about brining it up and the "feelings" it gives her when someone doesn't pay her back right away.

>>>> Nothing's "wrong" -- men get chicks by doing admirable (often risky) things. It doesn't work that way for women. You can sit in a coffee shop reading a book and you'll have men falling all over you if you're beautiful enough.

----------

One way of reading that statement is "women don't have to do any real work if they can sell sex and otherwise exploit the chivalry of men".

Come to think of it, I can't really read that statement any other way.

And just wait a few years ... no one is going to be hitting on you in a coffee shop.

I think, in a large group, women spend more time worrying about being fair to everyone. As in, asking for separate checks so the woman who's worried about how much the meal will cost her - especially with others ordering wine or extras - can save face by saying she's not very hungry and ordering something small.

Generally with a group of all adults, I start at 15 percent and it goes up from there if anyone at the table is high-maintenance (as in, asks the server to make a special trip for anything). It goes way up if anyone at the table is unpleasantly high-maintenance, whether I invited him/her or not.

If there are kids at the table, I start at 20 percent assuming they are neat and impeccably behaved. If they make a mess I clean it up myself and leave 25+ or even 30 percent depending on degree.

If the service is inattentively lousy I stil leave 15 or 20 (adults or kids). If the service is argumentative, snide or nasty (even to a high-mainenance guest), and this has only happened to me a couple of times, no tip. My attitude (and my kids') is within my control, and the server's attitude is within the server's. I suppose that makes me just another cheap middle aged broad.

"One way of reading that statement is "women don't have to do any real work if they can sell sex and otherwise exploit the chivalry of men".

Feminist?

"I find it typical, but not interesting, that most of the explanations for why men pick up checks a lot more than women are denigrating to men."

Many of the explanations here are actually denigrating to women...women are cheap/superficial/don't care about other's inconvenience/passive-aggressive/anal/mistrusting.

Both sides are silly. We should be able have a discussion about a difference between sexes without it turning into an insult-fest.

It's actually pretty simple: a group of men will forget who paid the last time, but women will remember. So men trust statistics to work it out over the long term, women divvy it up so they won't have to trust the statistics.

Interesting that the very first person to chime in was a woman saying that picking up the tab was some sort of ego thing for men trying be big shots. I'd guess the author of that comment is most likely single, or divorced.

Speaking personally, I believe some of the instinct to pick up the tab is a patriarchal one. Obviously, when I'm out with my family, it falls on me to pick up the tab. Likewise, if I'm out with friends, I'll happily pick up the tab, in the full knowledge that my friend/fellow diner will get it next time (or there will be no further next-times).

I'm sooo far out of the dating pool that picking up the tab outside of either of these two scenarios is a distant memory (Work doesn't count because you're not really "paying"). But I do recall the bemusement of dating otherwise self-aware, modern and self-sufficient (just ask them) women who suddenly had to powder their nose the moment the check came - not that I would ever expect a dinner date to pay, of course.

I cannot speak intelligently to the machinations of women's reasoning and thinking (my wife has often relayed stories of compulsive check-splitting when out with her friends), but I will say that many women seem to be incapable of appreciating a simple act of generosity. They're always keeping score.

Oh, and one other thing to the teachers whining about all the extra hours:

Boo. Freaking. Hoo. Show me any salaried employee that doesn't work extra hours. It's called dedication.

Now show me any other class of salaried professional employee that gets 2-3 months off during the summer.

Only a union member could find a reason to complain about either.

Focus1 - if you're still here: you are so right! And also so right to use as an example the canonical woman-in-checkout-line-fishing-for-exact-change.

(Except you forgot a supporting detail: She doesn't even look in her purse for her wallet until after all the groceries are run through the machine and the cashier tells her the total. God forbid she should get her wallet out ahead of time! The man, paying with cash, has a fistful of dollars in his hand before everything is rung up and is ready to shove it at the cashier as soon as the last item is scanned.)

I am a single woman working for a non-profit, so while I do okay I'm not steeped in disposable income. I also like to eat what I want to eat, and have dessert when I like. If I'm with a group of people, if I haven't asked for a separate check I am conscious of a need to eat cheap and skip dessert if I suspect someone else will wind up paying. Eating out is a pleasure, not a necessity, and I don't like feeling constrained. Ergo, separate check. I also, quite frankly, do not like the money discussion at the end; separate checks alleviate that as well. I always tip well - 20% at least - and add a little more if I think the waiter's had a time of it. For example, sometimes I'm a little more demanding of service than at other times. The waiter gets more as a result.

I don't understand why separate checks vs one check is on its face a moral issue.

Diana: I think it's an ego thing for men; they want to look like a big shot. Women don't care about looking like a big shot and I think they are more aware of day-to-day budgeting issues and what will suffer if they pick up the tab for a largish group.

Or, we could just say that men are generous, women are cheap.

c'mon. ask for 1 bill. pass it around and figure out what your share is -- including tax and tip. Don't need a math teacher -- it is basic mathematics -add, subtract, divide, multiply- you should have learned by what, second grade? Yes, it requires a little effort, but you aren't being asked to determine the circumference of the pizza pie.

I find it interesting that many of the (presumably, based on name) female commenters seem to assume if a man asks for a single check, he's going to pay it himself rather than have the group split it themselves.

I recently had lunch with several mothers of kids on my child's sports team, and we got a single check to split at my suggestion (I'm a guy - the only one at this gathering). Huge mistake on my part. This occurred:

1. In one of the wealthiest counties in the nation.

2. Among several stay at home moms from households in, I'm reasonably certain, at least the 95th percentile in terms of household income.

3. In a restaurant where the most expensive item on the menu is less than $10.

What amazed me was unbelievably the low value they placed on their time. If we'd simply split the check by the number of people present, nobody's bill would have been off by more than $2. Instead, at the insistence of several women present, we proceeded to spend 30 minutes splitting the check down to the penny for everyone.

Excuse me?

Business woman here.

If it's my meeting - I pick up the check.
If it's your meeting - I offer my share. Cash. On the table. Tip included.

Life is too short and work to pressing to squabble over chump change.

What I don't see mentioned here is the recognition that the guys just don't have the patience for separate checks. Whenever I'm out w/ my, say, five buddies and the bill is $98, one guy will pay the check w/ his credit card and the other four guys will give him 20 bucks. It's alot simpler and it's fair...and the wait staff don't necessarily see it happening.

The math wasn't quite right, but you get the point.

(Male here, in case it doesn't become obvious.)
If I'm a guest, I offer to pay my share, but will submit readily if the putative host insists -- after all, it's his/her gig. If it's an impromptu gathering, I expect to pay my share, and I'll let someone else pick up the tap ONLY if I feel I'll likely get the chance to reciprocate in some way. Often, if someone offers to pay my bill, I'll offer/insist on leaving the (usually generous) gratuity. If I'm hosting, and invited you without suggesting "Dutch Treat", I'm paying, pure and simple. I planned for it, and I won't let you cajole me out of it.
As for gratuities, by the way, I DON'T tip on tax (the government does NOT provide good service, generally, but wasteful ones), and DO vary it by two factors: my personal circumstances at the moment, and how good the service is. I don't care that an employer only pays $1.50 an hour, or whatever. That's not my jurisdiction. No wait staff is entitled to a gratuity simply because he/she chooses to work for a low wage. I didn't hire him/her, but it's MY money I'm tipping! That said, I generally hover around 17%-20% of pre-tax total. But, I've been known to leave a quarter or 50 cents when I thought service was downright bad, just to make sure the server knows I didn't 'forget'.

I have no idea why men and women do this differently, but I think ValueofEverything probably has it right: guys just don't have the patience for such nonsense.

If I'm out with two or three of half a dozen guys, when the check comes we each put down a credit card, the waiter divides evenly by the number of credit cards, and we agree on what to tip. If it's somebody's birthday, he keeps his credit card in his wallet. If someone ordered grossly more expensive food or bev, he puts up the entire tip. Or, as VoE says, one guy pays it all and takes cash from the others, but this usually happens when the guy has no cash and he's just boosting his liquidity without any need to stop at the ATM. And this takes place with little or no discussion: it just happens. Simple.

But when I look around any restaurant, I see tables of women counting up every penny and trying to figure out who owes two bucks more because she had the calamari instead of the salad and who owes five bucks more because she drank one extra cosmo. Annie B is right that life's too short, but she's a minority among her sex.

Who cares? It really will all even out over time, and you're supposed to be doing this because you enjoy spending time with each other, not because you're itching to do math in public.

Actually, men are just better friends than women are. They tend to be less vindictive and thus expect a friendship, even one based solely on work, to span long enough that they will have lunch as a future date and time where the others pick up the tab. It has nothing to do with ego at all that I ever noticed. Usually when I am working at a new company, I will make about 3 to 5 friends as a group. We all like to go out to eat, and the tab goes round the group. If I pay once, I can expect to pay again after 3 to 5 other times having gone out. It pretty much always works out to even Steven. Men are even honest enough that the person whose turn it is to buy will use that as the excuse to get the rest of us gathered for another outing.

"I think women in general are more frugal when it comes to money. They're paid less than men, and it's more expensive to be a woman. Men can buy underwear in packages of three for ten bucks. "

I go commando. It's even cheaper.

Bill Engvall story: The difference between men and women is if a man finds out his lady is going commando, he thinks, "All right, I'm gonna get lucky tonight." A woman who finds that out about her man thinks, "Damn, I'm gonna have to wash those pants twice."

And to figure the tip, easiest way is to divide the amount by 6 to get 16.67%. Add a bit if you feel like it.

In some jurisdictions, just double the sales tax. Easiest of all.

Wow. I hadn't realised this was such a inflammatory topic. I like to pick up the check because it simplifies things for everybody, the server, the guests, whatever. If we are a group of guys, we will split up the refunds and not be picky about a few dollars over or under. Because what goes around comes around.

When I'm dating, I always pay, because I only date my wife and we have a joint account. And both of us are comfortable with this. (Before we were married, 27 years ago, when she accepted my invitation to dinner I would pay, and it imposed upon her no sense of obligation for any sort of payoff, and paying for dinner did not lead me to expect anything different from what our friendship and increasing attraction would maybe lead to. Then again, dinner in those days was often fast food and a shake when we were both students. Would it have been different if we were talking hundreds of dollars? I hope not).

Someone shut me up please, I'm reminiscing.

Something that I have not seen mentioned here yet, is the practice of splitting the bill evenly between everyone present(which I have only had done when there was much greater percentage of women in the group).

I have been at multiple functions where the bill comes and I am told I owe $ amount even though I may have ordered far less then that amount (i.e. everyone pays $55 to cover the bill when I have ordered a $15 plate and already paid for my drinks).

This always struck me as interesting since it was only done where women have been the ones figuring out the bill, and also after they have ran up a large tab themselves (in the above example most of us guys had spent about $30 on a plate and drinks, where almost every woman had ordered a $35 plate and had $40+ in drinks).

I am interested to hear if others have had this experience (either as a server or patron)? Also if they understand why it is not seen as rude behavior by any of the others at the table? Admittedly I live in CA near San Francisco, so not a huge shock to find rude or selfish people.

What is comes down to is expectations. Men expect to pay for what they get. Women epect to get treated, and jealously battle not to treat other women.
When people talk about their dreams of winning the lottery, men want a porshe, or a jet, or a big house. Women want servants, spa treatments, and so on. Men want things. Women want to be pampered. And women fight to only pamper their own family & closest friends. Men value their time and hassle free existence much more than money (usually that is, I know some pretty cheap men). Women will discuss for hours how to divide money & responsibilities.

The only times we go out are with my daughters and their families or our best friends and their family.

I ALWAYS pick up the check when with my daughters, as my wife and I are better able to afford it, and besides, I LIKE buying my children and grandchildren supper!

When with our best friends, I always try to get the check. They have more money than we do, but since he also invites us along on trips to the lake on the pontoon boat, trips to state parks in the camper, comes over and plows up the garden spot, and other various things that cost money and he can rarely be persuaded to take more than a little gas money, then it is a way to repay in part some of the stuff he does for us. Besides, I LIKE buying them supper occasionally!

Most of the mean-spirited comments from men or women, are huge generalizations.
I am female and always fretting about "putting someone out" or inconveniencing them. I'm the one in the grocery line who doesn't want to hold things up, so I have check/ money/credit card ready, and end up with 40 pounds of change at the end of the week.
When eating out with female friends, I'm very conscious of the price of my meal/drinks so I pay my fair share. They do also, and some are TIGHT!.I'm also always checking to see if everyone leaves a 20% tip.
Since so many on here view all women as greedy/grasping/ entitled, I wish I had acted on that all these years. If I had acted as a bitch instead of a candy-assed people- pleaser, maybe I would have been treated as a queen.
Stop with the feckin' generalizations!

Also, I think it's nice, if you see a homeless person or somebody who looks down and out, to offer to buy them a cup of coffee and a sandwich. It doesn't cost you that much money, and it's probably a significant thing for them.

Just remember to be considerate and ask them if they would prefer crack or a bottle of cheap wine instead. Personally I'd take the wine over a sadwich so I know what I'm talking about.

'sandwich' damnit. Great way to prove my point...

Zing!!

Every now and again I'll be in line at Subway and find myself behind a woman who not only pulls out a list and orders ten sandwiches (argh!) but then, when she gets to the register, she pulls out ten little baggies of money from her co-workers and insists on paying for them all separately (and putting the respective change in each baggie). I've seen more than one woman do this, but, thankfully, never any men. I'm sure that if it were possible to beat someone to death with a sandwich I'd already be on death row.

I'm sure that if it were possible to beat someone to death with a sandwich I'd already be on death row.

Or maybe her co-workers are jerks and insist on exact change and receipts.

Steve H. I'd be right behind you, beating her/HIM! with my drooling pulled -pork sandwich, and onion rings.. I hate indecisive multiple orders, but gentle reminder- --men AND women.
One sex does not monopolize assholery.

Steve H. I'd be right behind you, beating her/HIM! with my drooling pulled -pork sandwich, and onion rings.. I hate indecisive multiple orders, but gentle reminder- --men AND women.
One sex does not monopolize assholery.

Yes, start in a little later on the cheap wine and crack.

Be fair, I'm in a different timezone - I never do crack before the sun goes down!

"Or maybe her co-workers are jerks and insist on exact change and receipts"

Where I work, that would be met with, "Fine. Get your own lunch, asshole."

Okay guys, don't assume it's just a click on the computer to split checks. Where I work, the computer is probably as old as me. There's no way to split a check without voiding all but one person's order then opening new checks for each other person. Our boss doesn't like us doing that because those new orders all go back to the kitchen and cause confusion...especially on a busy Friday or Saturday which is when we get the most big groups that want separate checks. That leaves us with doing it by hand with a calculator with sticky buttons. It takes a while. When people ask me for 6 separate checks at the end of a meal on a Friday night, someties I have to say: "Our computer doesn't do that." I can't spend 15 minutes dividing a check when I have other tables waiting. Obviously, I'm getting a lower tip on that table AND I run the risk of the tips on my other 4 tables suffering. Usually, I'll just warn people that it will be a while. Sometimes they just decide to split it themselves....and sometimes they insist I do it and end up docking my tip when it takes too long. Assholes.

I see a lot of people split checks, but I guess it's mostly women and couples. If men are going to split it at all, they usually just hand me a bunch of cards and tell me to split it evenly. My theory is that it's just more of a laid back attitude on the men's part. They just don't seem as concerned with the pennies. They go out with a bunch of cash expecting to spend it. They'd rather finish their drinks and shooot the shit than calculate exactly what everyone spent. It may also be that they have a cute girl waiting on the and don't want to look cheap. Not that they would look cheap, but (back before I was wearing an engagement ring) I got the impression from some tables of guys that they wanted to be the one to pay and leave the tip to impress me. Not all tables...I'm no supermodel...but I've gotten some phone numbers written on receipts. How would they do that if they weren't the one paying? Just a thought.

I'm a woman guilty of asking for separate checks sometimes. We always ask before we order, but it's mostly because we all have our cards with us instead of cash. We're all notoriously late for everything, so we usually don't have time to stop at the ATM. Is it annoying for the server? Sure...but I compensate with a bigger tip for his/her trouble and I never complain when it takes them a few minutes to run four different cards.

Personally, I feel that you should be allowed to sit down and eat in a restaraunt unless you have worked in one. Most people that haven't just don't get it. For instance, if you go out to eat on a Friday night and the place is packed, even if you only order two burritos and two waters, I still have to run arund just as much as I would if you had ordered two steaks and two mixed drinks. So yeah, I know your bill was only $12...but would it kill you to leave a $5?...or even $4? Yeah, I know 20% is only $2.40, but I just spent an hour keeping your water full, taking you order, bringing your food, laughing at your jokes, etc. Don't you think that's worth a little more than $2.40? The same thing goes for separate checks...especially for big parties. Normally, if a large party comes in, we drop that server from the rotation so they can focus on them at least until their order is in. So, we're losing out on tables and kind of banking on the fact that the large order and tip will make up for it. So if you get separate checks, PLEASE take a few minutes to add them up and make sure your server is taken care of. We don't get paid much. Tips are where we make our money. I'm not some kid working for movie money. I'm a big girl with a big girl mortgage to pay.

Oh, and don't even get e started on the people who have left me a prayer card for a tip. I've tried praying for my bills to pay themselves, it's not working. Yeah, I know the economy is bad...why the hell else would I be here after my other full time job twice a week? If you can't afford to tip, the take out menus are by the door.

All that said, a good attitude goes a long way with me. Some of my favorite regulars aren't the best tippers, they're just pleasant people that I enjoy talking to.

good article and one that jives with my observations - I suspect the difference in behavior is rooted in the same phenomena that caused this joke, one that I am shamelessly stealing from Van Der Leun, who shamelessly stole it from Curmudgeonly & Skeptical:

Friendship: Women vs Men

Friendship Among Women:

A woman didn’t come home one night.
The next morning she told her husband that she had slept over at a friend’s house.
The man called his wife’s 10 best friends.
None of them knew anything about it.

Friendship Among Men:

A man didn’t come home one night.
The next morning he told his wife that he had slept over at a friend’s house.
The woman called her husband’s 10 best friends.
Eight confirmed that he had slept over, and two said he was still there