It all traces back to the parent's narcissism.

It's about what they want to do, and how they want to feel about themselves.

Be warned: any pretense of caring about the kid/wanting to give the kid an "enriching experience" - is just that: a pretense.

These are narcissists through and through. The "parenting style" is Munchausen-by-proxy.

They don't see their kids - or anyone else around them - as people, equal to them and worthy of consideration. Everything is perceived only in relation to their still-infantile selves.

Airplanes are much worse, because the kids are excited by a new environment, and don't have any place to run and burn of their energies. Moreover punishment options are very limited on an air plane, and the kids instinctively know this and take advantage. Basically it's a perfect storm. (Note: I recommend a bag of cheap, non-chokeable, toys, to doll out over the duration of the flight, and children's Benydrill)

Airplanes are very crowded environments, and I sympathize with people who are bothered by children, but that's what business class tickets are for. Parents should do their best to make angels of their little devils, but ultimately there is a limit to how much they can do. After all, children DO have minds of their own.

I don't particularly mind a little child fussiness on the plane, but on the way back from Germany once I sat next to a woman whose 9 year old boy was clearly hyperactive. Mom had equally clearly given up. The boy would ask a question, she would ignore it, and he would continue to ask it at every louder volume, until he was screaming. At which point she would give in. By the time he started hitting her and getting in the way of the drink cart, the German lady to one side and I on the other were acting as stand-in parents. The mom still didn't react--completely defeated. I wondered what vital lifestyle choice required regularly dragging this kid on transatlantic flights.

"Moreover punishment options are very limited on an air plane, and the kids instinctively know this and take advantage."

But the punishment options are restored once off of the plane and the children should know this and can be made to act appropriately. My parents did not take me to fancy restaurants or on planes as a small child because they knew they would be torturing the other patrons (as well as themselves.)

However, we went to church every Sunday where punishment options are also limited. However, my parents made it clear that if we misbehaved in church, that the punishment that we had to look forward to would be all the worse. Consequently we did not act-up in church.

I do agree that you need to be creative in keeping kids occupied on a long and dull flight. This is a far better option than threats of punishment. I think that this is the real problem today. Some parents don't want to put in the time with their kids ... they are basically lazy.

When my kids were younger, we would host get-togethers for other parents with kids. We set up a play area and snacks for the kids, and beer/wine for the parents. We could relax, have a drink and still watch our kids. For a few bucks the neighbor's teen would lead the kiddies in games.

I had a favorite place when I lived in Canton, MI-a coffee bar with a kids play area in the back. I wrote lots of papers for my classes while the kids
played on the jungle gym.

Be warned: any pretense of caring about the kid/wanting to give the kid an "enriching experience" - is just that: a pretense.

I agree with this. I've heard parents justify taking their unruly kids to nice restaurants with the excuse that there is no other way to teach their kids to behave in nice restaurants. Um, horseshit. There IS another way, and it's called the dinner table at home. Practice with them at home, and THEN, when they have demonstrated that they know the drill and are old enough to be past the meltdown stage, you can take them to a more adult-oriented restaurant.

In fact, I think that's a good idea. Kids should learn how to order from a menu, a menu that doesn't have a kids' section. Learn how to choose something and eat what the grownups are eating, which prepares them for being a grownup themselves someday. But they've got to master the whole sitting still thing first, the using silverware thing, the napking thing, etc., and the place to learn that is at home.

Parents could make this fun, and something the kids would look forward to. And while they are being prepped, a little speech on "being considerate of the other people who are enjoying their dinner" wouldn't hurt.

Hmm, perhaps there's a business opportunity in opening a bar that specifically caters to mothers with young children. But we've reached the point where many people believe that business owners have no rights whatsoever in determining what kind of conduct takes place in their establishment. I was reading yesterday about a lawsuit in California where four skinheads showed up at a German restaurant wearing swastika pins. Upon being told they would not be admitted unless they removed the pins first, they sued under California's all-singing-all-dancing public accommodations law, and the restaurant had to settle with them. This despite the fact that, under California's hostile-environment laws, the restaurant could have been sued by other patrons for admitting the guys.

This belief that any kind of behavior is appropriate, any time, anywhere, is something that I think a lot of people have gotten tired of. But nobody knows what to do about it, specifically when kids are involved. If you try to correct someone else's kids, you get yelled at. (Or, if you're a middle-age man like me, the parents call the cops and the next thing you know you're being charged with sex crimes.)

Guess what, lady: The feminists were wrong. Sadly, tragically, you cannot "have it all"

____________________

Um, who exactly said that, besides Michelob?

I have little doubt that the ENEMIES of feminists like to claim feminists said that.

And regarding "not when it means making the rest of us put up with it all": I don't remember any self-described feminist arguing that it's anti-feminist to demand that crying children be kept out of quiet venues. Rude people, certainly. (Someone once had the nerve to compare the banning of babies from a certain classical music concert to the Jim Crow Laws. This is about society's distorted image of CHILDREN'S rights, as I see it. After all, we wouldn't put up with severely disabled ADULTS who yell at such "quiet" concerts.)

"Underparented children." I'm going to use that phrase for the rest of my life.

When I turned 21, it was a rite of passage. Finally, I got to have an actual drink in a place where only people my age and older could be lawfully allowed to gather and consume alcoholic beverages. No one else younger was in the joint - they had to wait their turn.

Then something happened in the late eighties or early nineties when bars and restaurants started mixing in kids and food and drinks and adults together. No place in California at least, was off limits. They still haven't figured out the concept with Chuck E. Cheese.

Just once in awhile I'd like to frequent a public place where I could have a quiet conversation and meal with other adults over the age of 21 - and not a nightclub or a lounge or a Starbucks, either.

*****I agree with this. I've heard parents justify taking their unruly kids to nice restaurants with the excuse that there is no other way to teach their kids to behave in nice restaurants. Um, horseshit. There IS another way, and it's called the dinner table at home. Practice with them at home, and THEN, when they have demonstrated that they know the drill and are old enough to be past the meltdown stage, you can take them to a more adult-oriented restaurant.*****

Pirate Jo, you beat me to it. If parents want to use the "we need to take them out to socialize them" excuse then they'd better fucking SOCIALIZE THEM. If you're letting them run wild you are NOT teaching them how to behave in public, so don't try and tell me you are.

Just last week I was in my local watering hole and watched two "mothers" with about 5 kids between them around the ages of 5-8 sit oblivious while they ran screaming and playing tag all over the bar, under the foosball table, and all over the stage they have there for the bands (which seems to be their designated playground for some reason). Now, let's forget the fact that a) this is a bar and b) it's fairly crowded and think about the fact that some poor waitress could have been carrying a tray of hot food and tripped over one of these underparented feral kids. And we all know if that happened, mommy would dial her lawyer before she dialed 911.

Sometimes I hate humanity.

I'm with you, Ann. Even some of the more family-friendly places, like Perkins or Applebees or any kind of chain restaurant that provides highchairs and whatnot - I wonder what these parents are thinking. They come in with their broods of noseminers, plop the highchair at the end of the table, and by the time they leave it looks like Hurricane Snotleigh hit the area. It irritates me that they do NOTHING to clean up after themselves.

The entire zone surrounding their booth or table will be covered with chunks of food and crumbs, crayons, ketchup, discarded napkins, you name it. It takes a small hazmat team to clean up after these cretins. And yes I realize the restaurant is encouraging you to bring your family or they wouldn't provide crayons and high chairs, but did they really envision that you would allow your children to have a food fight? At least do SOMETHING to mitigate the damage, or leave a giant tip that compensates all the employees it takes to do it for you.

Heck, I remember when LIBRARIES had separate sections for children and adults, let alone bars.

What's with people? Are the "normal" parents another silent majority, or are these non-parents and helicopter parents becoming the new normal?

I feel sorry for the parents of the two-year-old who choked on a piece of popcorn, but I'm afraid it was the father who was at fault, not the popcorn manufacturer.

I feel sorry for the parents of the girl who choked on a marshmallow, but I think the instructions of "cut the marshmallow in small pieces and make sure the kid is sitting down" is ridiculous! (I've already heard from a couple of women about the inherent danger of the domestic marshmallow. Tough. It's still ridiculous.)

I imagine the rice krispy treats are dangerous, too, as all foods are if you don't learn to chew.

Ok, fancy restaurants are fancy restaurants. Children don't belong there until they've demonstrated the ability to sit still and good manners.

My mom used one once as a bribe to get me to have better table manners. When my manners were deemed good enough (no slouching, no elbows, fork held properly) I was treated to dinner at The Pillar House. It was very exciting. They brought us sorbet between courses to cleanse our palate, and at the end of the meal they gave roses to all the ladies. It rocked. I had earned it.

Airplanes, however... sometimes there isn't another way to get kids from point A to point B. I agree that people need to teach their children well... and a nine-year-old who is jumping around is unacceptable... but babies and small toddlers might just cry at some point. That's life.

"What's with people? Are the "normal" parents another silent majority, or are these non-parents and helicopter parents becoming the new normal?"

Nope. They are just much more vocal are the first to sue or start a protest.

Squeaky wheel and all that...

As I recall, the age 21+ rule for bars comes from the state regulations on their license to sell liquor/beer/wine.

I've seen people argue with the bartender over this. Obviously, they're not serious drinkers, as we know that you don't pick a fight with your bartender, you can not win.

Well, my kids were and are not the Hellspawn of whom you write, but yes, we must travel. My wife got to see her mother three times, and her father four, since she married me and moved here over 30 years ago. She'll never see them again.

That first trip was six years after we moved here. It was almost as long again for the next one, when my then youngest was two. Could it have turned out badly? Sure, but there was no reason to expect it would, and it didn't.

We paid the fare. The kids flew. Nobody was inconvenienced. You can't drive to Japan. I would not trade those trips for anything.

I've been stuck on plenty of planes with crying kids. I don't like it either, but some times you have to put up with things you don't like. I'll take the crying kid over the 400 pound person overflowing into my seat any day.

I have also taken my girls to a Hooters after a gymnastics meet, when it was the only place we could find in the area that was still open and serving food. If I go to hell, that will surely be one of my lesser transgressions.

I'm respectful of the boundaries, but sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.

MarkD-
A baby's ears might be hurting on a plane and their only way to express that is crying...but that is not what we take issue with. Crying kids on a plane aren't the problem. It's the ones that scream and shriek and whine, and kick the back of our seat and run up and down the aisles and are genuanly "under parented" that we have a problem with. Why do you assume that we hate all "hellspawns" as you call them just because we don't want to put up with their misbehavior? We don't. But we DO expect that parents at least TRY to control their kids and we expect that if a kid is out in public, that they will behave. Most people are sympathetic to parents who are genuanly trying, and even willing to help out if possible. Most of us are reasonable enough to understand that sometimes kids just cry. I am willing to cut exhausted looking Mom's and Dad's some slack if they are at least TRYING. But our issue is that most of the time, these entitled "parents" expect us to just "deal with it" because "they are just a kid". Uuuh no. YOU (general) deal with it, or you go home. Period.

And, barring a grave health condition that prevents one from traveling, (which I assume is not the case since you didn't mention one) your excuse for forcing your toddler on everyone doesn't fly (pun intended) because planes work both ways. Why could your wifes parents not fly to you? Do planes not fly from Japan to wherever you are? Surely it's cheaper to fly one or two people than an entire family anyway right? It's great that your children were fine on the plane, and I can honestly say that I have not had had many bad experiances on planes with kids.... however, what if they hadn't been? Do you honestly expect people just to get over it because you wanted to fly with your toddler and the toddler decided to have a screaming fit on the plane? Nope. That is the price you pay when you CHOOSE to have children and then CHOOSE to fly with them. It isn't an acceptable attitude to tell those of us who didn't choose to fly with your toddler that we should just get over it.

And I don't object to you bringing your kids to Hooters. If it's really the only place open, then do what you have to do. As long as you don't object to people swearing, drinking, possibly smoking, and flirting with the sexy waitresses in front of your kids, and as long as your kids are well behaved. But, if you have a problem with those terms, perhaps your best bet is to take them home and feed them there.

My son 1st flew at 3yrs old. We brought a portable DVD player with kids movies, coloring books, crayons, reading books and had no issue with him. He's been on several flights since and never a problem...even a 6 hour trip to Hawaii, after a 3 hour trip to AZ and a 1 hour lay over. So, not all children behave like monsters and it's seems ridiculous to say ALL children should be "banned" from flying!

We've had this discussion before, of course. Amy asks "WHY are you getting the kids from point A to point B", as though the answer is clear: you shouldn't. This is one area where she is too extreme. Kids are people, and people travel: in the car, in the bus and, yes, in the plane.

Sure kids should behave, and underparented kids are a disaster anywhere - including in the airplane. However, for normal, well-behaved kids behaving normally - including non-adult-like behavior: if you can't deal with it, perhaps you should not be travelling with the unwashed masses. That sword cuts both ways.

Warner says--

> The world isn't as perfect you wish
> it to be. Perhaps you should embrace
> that rather than complain about it.

That's a FASCINATING comment. Let's review the fascinations.

1. It's presented with no supportive logic, or contextual infrastructure, or even any narratives of personal experience to explain, however inanely, why it might be an appropriate thing to say. It's just tits-out naked, walking down the street: Life is DARK, babe!

We can presume that it's transparent mask for shame. He's had kids who misbehaved around strangers, or he did so himself, but hasn't found the will to apologise. It's easier just pretend it's background noise, like when a cat falls off a sofa and walks away with nonchalance: 'I meant to do that....'

2. We're left to wonder what other contexts might summon this argument. When a drunk driver kills a guy, or an airplane pilot falls asleep, or an oil platform blows up: The world isn't as perfect you wish it to be... So get over yourself!

3. Any time a modern American uses the word "wish", something stupid is about to happen. It's particularly bad with software (Do you wish to save your file?).

This is a timely post, considering what happened last week.

I was eating lunch (solo) at a restaurant, deeply involved in my book. In the diner, there was a shrieking baby. Not crying, no much worse. It's that high-pitched shriek, coming in short bursts, that makes it feel like your brain is going to start oozing out of your ears at any second. Now, I have the ability to focus completely on my book and make the shriek background because I work with children and most of my current neighbors have small children. It's a defense mechanism.

However, the guy across from me didn't have that ability. He was out with his preschool-aged daughter and grandpa, and he lost it. Slammed his knife and fork down and went over to the lady and (surprisingly calmly) told her to please take the baby outside to calm it down, because he couldn't hear a blessed word Gramps was saying.

Did the lady go "oh, I'm so sorry". No. "She's just a few months old! What do you expect!?" A few minutes later, she packed herself and her girlfriends up and made a show of leaving the restaurant. "GEE, I HOPE NO OTHER KIDS DISTURB YOUR MEAL!"

After she left, another woman told the guy, "Thanks so much for saying something - I wasn't sure I could take it any more."

Did that mother imagine the rest of the restaurant had the responsibility to tune her baby out? Or that she shouldn't have to excuse herself to calm it down? It never seemed to occur to her that she was actually in the wrong. I mean, the dude had a kid of his own! He knows what behavior is reasonable to expect from a parent!

Anyways, thought it was interesting, considering the discussion.

If I owned a restaurant, I'd have a big no stroller sign on my front door and a person AT that door to ensure little savages stayed out so that adults could have a pleasant time with adults.

I'd also refer said rejected parents to a baby sitting service for a commission.

I like grown up company when I go out, I like capitalism. I don't apologize for either one, let them bitch if they like. My property, MY rules.

"So, not all children behave like monsters and it's seems ridiculous to say ALL children should be "banned" from flying!"

Who said that? No one. We are not all child haters. Once again, an offended parent is putting words into the mouths of the rest of us who don't think their kids are the center of the universe. So what if your kid behaved on your flight. Somone elses kid probably didn't. No one is asking for a ban. We are asking for parents to actually "parent". YOU aren't who we are talking about anyway CC since you stated yourself that you had activities for your kids to do. So why are you so offended?

Guy named Jeff Cooper once wrote of some former students bringing their families to the firearms training school he ran; his comment was something like "I had forgotten what a pleasure it is to be around well-trained children." In other words,kids that were polite, did not run around screaming or grabbing things they shouldn't and so forth.

Being around kids like that IS a pleasure; being stuck around those who were never trained is a PITA.

If the parent of a screaming brat feels no shame, why would the kid?

I remember the most obnoxious kid I ever saw. It was at this resort... Palau's kind of like a Caribbean paradise for the Japanese. The place has huge and wonderful outdoor common areas, dining and lounging and so forth.

And there was this kid there, about ten or twelve years old, and he was completely out of control. Squealing like a six-year-old on a sugar binge, whining, slumping to his ankles when his caretaker (babysitter? parent?) tried glumly to move him from place to place. There were a lot of cultures represented in the open-air restaurants, and we all were thinking the same thing: What an asshole. He made his presence felt as several occasions: This wasn't just a bad moment.

Understand, this kid was about twenty minutes away from his first erection. What's life going to be like for children so oblivious? When you're raised with precisely zero capacity for empathy, and no understanding of what your company means to another person, how do you make it through your day?

Maybe parents are deploying these kids as a weapon... OK, fuck the parents. But what about the kids?

I'm sensing a lot of child-hatred on this blog. You do realize that if people don't procreate YOU wouldn't exist? How f'in selfish can you be.

Several friends and I were at the Sex and the City midnight opening last night, and a woman came in with a baby in a car seat. A baby. At an R rated movie. After midnight. As a mother, I wanted to run up to this woman and slap her hard for several reasons.

There is a wonderful line from the movie "African Queen" where Katherine Hepburn says "Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above." At our core, we are animals, and left to our own devices, we run wild. The job of a good parent is to teach children to rise above this. Doing this is a 24 hrs a day/7 days a week job. There are no "Pause" buttons. Unless you hire a sitter, you forfeit the option of going to nice restaurants, movies, and bars for several years.

Unless, of course, you're like the dumb bitch who brought her baby to a midnight movie or one of the inconsiderate jerks who subject us to their screatching toddlers at $100 a plate restaurants. To those people, as a parent myself, I say "GET OVER IT". The day that sperm hit the egg, it quit being about YOU.

To parents and non-parents, please, please, call parents out on their bad parenting. Maybe if we all did this more often, things would change.

Amy,

I thought of you on my flight over here a few weeks ago. Across the aisle from me and forward a few rows was a 2 - 4 year old boy who decided it was perfectly fine to stand up on his seat, look backwards, and scream & shout at full volume. His mother thought nothing wrong with this.

The elderly couple behind him did, tried to move, but there were no seats available and no sane people wanted to swap.

Robert - why didn't the elderly couple lambaste the mother for being a crappy parent? Why won't people speak UP these days?

I'm sensing a lot of child-hatred on this blog. You do realize that if people don't procreate YOU wouldn't exist? How f'in selfish can you be.

My parents both manage to procreate and then parent afterward. Is that an astonishing feat to you? To them, it was just part of the deal.

Always love the name-calling and accusations as a way out of not really having a good argument. "Child-hatred"? So, it's hateful and "selfish" to expect people not to inflict screaming children on others? Aren't they the selfish ones?

I'm with Amy on this one, the real selfishness is inflicting your lack of parenting on others in the form of a feral child. Especially when confined on an airplane.

Crusader, it's not very comfortable for most people to "lambaste" another. As for your insistence that there's child hatred on this blog, perhaps with some but not me. I'm the BEST uncle I know and adore my nieces & nephews (adopted or otherwise) immensely. But I'm not a big fan of bad behaviour, no matter if someone is 2 or 82.

P.S. Catherine, I LOVE your term "feral child"! Do you have a shortened version for "feral 20-something"?

> You do realize that if people don't
> procreate YOU wouldn't exist?

Through such slender logic, great wads of bitterness are cast forward... People seem to have decided that they can never be criticized for the sorrow their children bring to the world. So they permit, nay, encourage annoying behaviors from their kids. It's a great way lash out at the world in a non-specific way, in retaliation for all of life's little hurts. It's Payback City, Bay-bee! And no one can ever complain, 'cause after all, they're just little kids... And weren't you a little kid once, too?

> How f'in selfish can you be.

This has always struck me as the most demented argument imaginable-- That you owe life to being that doesn't exist. As if you just know that YOUR imaginary kid would be the one to cure cancer instead of rob banks.

i flew a lot with babies and toddlers. when i arrived and friends asked me how the flight was, I always said, "the good news is that the kids were great! the bad news is that I worked my ass off with them and i'm pooped!"

People confuse a reasonable expectation that parents should teach their kids how to behave with child hatred. As a mother I would be horrified if my children behaved a certain way in public. When they were younger we ate at Friendly's until I was sure that they wouldn't disturb other diners in a nice place. And never would I leave a mess or allow my kids to leave one. Even in the movies, my kids will pick up the garbage other people, including adults, throw on the floor. Maybe I have a higher tolerance for a kid that is misbehaving because I'm a mom and know that they all have their bad days, but there is a difference between attempting to control the situation and ignoring it. Never would I stay anywhere that my kids were creating a disturbance and there would certainly be consequences at home. I'm reasonably sure this is the reason I get compliments on my children from strangers when out. There was no choice for them when it came to using manners and courtesy to others.

Love the Feral child term, I will use it and happily credit the source. I just got back from a conference in New Orleans a few weeks ago and surprisingly enough, there were not any kids on the flight that were misbehaving. Unfortunately, the airline was not able to seat me with my wife (despite the fact I had reserved seats next to each other over a month before the flight) and no one was willing to switch. She was seated next to a 300+ man. Being pregnant, she was already fairly uncomfortable, so we switched seats. Seeing that we were both guys, he must have figured I wouldn't mind him watching an "adult" film on his portable movie player...classy.

I am certainly not presenting this as justification for bad kids, but flying has gradually become more unpleasant (or I have become more crotchety). I have a fair amount of tolerance for kids whose parents are making a genuine effort to prepare and control their kids on a flight.

The last time this subject came up (seems like about ten minutes ago) I quoted my SIL's comment about the low level of tolerance there is for children these days. She doesn't have any kids, neither do I.

At that time, I thought she might be right. Lately, however, I've decided the tolerance level is going down because the little children are getting less tolerable, as are their parents.

Why are comments like this branded 'hate'? Some people sure are thin-skinned lately. Any discussion of bad attitudes some women may hold prompts cries of 'misogynist' or 'woman hater', comments that a child screaming through an entire flight prompts 'child hater' comments. Are people unable to distinguish the difference between 'some children are loud and obnoxious' and 'I hate children'?

I get weird responses like this from family too. I commented on a news program, just saying 'how awful' about some abuse case or other and my mother said something like 'Don't knock this country, I still have to live here'. What the hell!? My sister, watching TV sees mention of single mothers getting welfare etc and feels the need to say to no one in particular '*I* don't get welfare, I never would!'

What psychological state is it where everything, from news reports, internet discussions about other people, to being cut off in traffic being taken as personal affront, and that one's honor needs to be defended by insults, defensive posts and interesting hand gestures?

I sympathize with people who are bothered by children, but that's what business class tickets are for.

I have as yet to fly business or first class -- and 95% my of my flying is for business. The closest I got was coming home from a conference that I paid for the legroom increase out of my own pocket. I was doing a red-eye and needed the space to sleep.

Anecdotally -- on the same trip I got to do Amtrak from central CA to L.A. I also upgraded my ticket from cattle car to the "first class" car at my own expense. That did not prevent a family from also being in first class. But the kids were fairly well behaved, and the parents worked with them the whole time to keep them entertained and in control. I had no problem with them.

I would have a problem with kids running back and forth.

> So, other people should have to pay, oh,
> $1,000 more a ticket because some people
> who are inconsiderate spawned?

Good question. Excellent question.

So, other people should have to pay, oh, $1,000 more a ticket because some people who are inconsiderate spawned?

Since when is that a guarantee of a child being in control by their parent(s). They could be even worse in business or first class.

Wow, anybody know a joint where I can simultaneously breast-feed and get a good stiff Harvey Wallbanger . . . honestly, leave the kidlets at home with a babysitter. (On the other hand, I do have friends with kids that have justifiably been driven to drink)

I sympathize with people who are bothered by children, but that's what business class tickets are for.

yes, that curtain does such a wonderful job of blocking the noise. Seriously though, on all but one flight where I have flown business (very few in total) there has been a kid or two in the same cabin. Granted, they have all been well behaved.

On one flight I was in the very last row of business class and there was a shrieking kid - not crying - who must have been in the row right behind me. Luckily I had both earplugs and big noise cancelling headphones so it was not too bad.

Oh, and my parents still don't take me to fancy restaurants.

I have children myself. TWo of them. One boy, one girl.

From the time they were old enough to toddle along, they began to learn how to behave. What was acceptable, what was not.

It isn't child hating here, its "BAD PARENT HATING" that you're seeing. Negligent & oblivious parents who don't have any consideration for the people around them or their children.

The last thing in the world I want to hear when I'm having coffee at a shop and trying to conduct research into one of my various projects, is someone's untaught, undisciplined, unatteneded child screeching at the top of their lungs.

Procreation is FINE. But TEACH what you make.

(On the other hand, I do have friends with kids that have justifiably been driven to drink)

Shame that they got started so young :)

"I'm sensing a lot of child-hatred on this blog."

No, you're detecting a lot of "parenting style" hatred on this blog. Most everyone has mentioned what a pleasure it is to be around a well behaved child. It's not necessarily the kids fault if they are a monster ... they have not yet acquired sufficient social skills. This is the parents job ... a job that seems to be done increasingly poorly as the years go by.

All of this "it takes a village to raise a child" horseshit seems to make parents think that they have been absolved of their responsibilities.

*****I'm sensing a lot of child-hatred on this blog. You do realize that if people don't procreate YOU wouldn't exist? How f'in selfish can you be.*****

Oh, let me take this one.

It is the very HEIGHT of selfishness to assume that your DNA is so superior that you need to reproduce. And, if you're not raising said DNA to be a productive, WELL-BEHAVED member of society, well, then you suck, buddy.

*****It isn't child hating here, its "BAD PARENT HATING" that you're seeing. Negligent & oblivious parents who don't have any consideration for the people around them or their children.*****

Wordy McWord Word. This this this.

*****All of this "it takes a village to raise a child" horseshit seems to make parents think that they have been absolved of their responsibilities.*****

As a member of the village, I have to totally agree with this as well. THIS member of the village doesn't have kids, and certainly doesn't want to raise yours. As a matter of fact, the next time I see your feral child almost off himself by doing something stupid, I'm not stopping him. That's your job. If you don't do it, well, I hope you have life insurance on him.

I'm done.

this whole conversation reminds me of that Carls Jr commercial - Johnny! That's not very loving - Johnny - This is Mommy's "Me" time . . . cracked me up . . .
you know somebody said that for reals. . .well just thank your lucky stars you are stuck beside the brats for life.

Uh, I meant NOT stuck

Totally bad parenting: a woman in Bridgeport, CT, who is pregnant with her 10th child, yes, you read that right her TENTH child, left her 3 year old son supposedly in the care of her sisters at some park. Child was supposed to go home with one of his aunts. Never made it. The mother went home and went to sleep. Thirteen hours later, she wakes up and wonders where's her little boy? He had been found by some kindly person who called the police, who took the boy to the hospital. Naturally, the police called DCF (Dept. of Children and Families), who got involved, and now the mother is all in a snit about it, as are her sisters. In a televised interview last night, one of the sisters said "it's all a big misunderstanding. It was a mistake. People make mistakes to learn from them!" The woman has been charged with risk of injury to a minor.

You can't make this shit up, people. Sheeeeeeeesh.

This woman and her sisters are just a couple of examples of the type of people who haven't a clue how to be parents!

Not sure in that last story, if it is the aunt that is FUBAR, or the mother, or both.

Having large numbers of children wasn't uncommon a long long time ago. But back then that was a home grown labor force and old age provision etc.

In modern America, I just don't see a reason for it?

How the hell does she pay for 10 children?

Fifty bucks says we do.

I get this on trains. I take the LIRR to and from work every day. Just today I switched cars when I noticed the yakkety-yak-yak preteens who were yakkety-yak-yakking on the platform entered my car after I sat down while continuing to yakkety-yak-yak. They happened to get off the same station I was, still yakkey-yak-yakking.

It's not only pre-teens. There are youngsters and teen-agers. It's not every day, but even once is too often. I try to remember when I was kid how I behaved. Maybe once or twice I yakkety-yak-yakked, but I know I spent most of the time fascinated looking out the window, quietly, unlike two brats several months ago who had to comment on anything and everything they found interesting while looking out the window. Sometimes I feel like apologizing profusely to the passengers of yesteryear I may have disturbed that I can't remember presuming it even happened.

Not sure in that last story, if it is the aunt that is FUBAR, or the mother, or both.

I'm gonna go out on a limb, here, Robert, and say "both".

Fifty bucks says we do.

Indeed we do, Ann. They live in the projects, and the mother H-U-G-E huge. She must weight as much as 4 Amys, and you can't even tell from looking at her that she's pregnant, just that she's FAT. Morbidly obese. And we're paying for that, too.

Ya know, I often wonder if the brattiness of today's kids started with the brattiness of yesterday's kid stars, what with the kids who watched them then, growing up to think that because they saw it on TV, misbehavior and talking back somehow became accepted because the kids on TV who did were "cute!". Like this one, who finally kicked the bucket: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37403423/ns/health/

His behavior just got worse as he got older.