It is a crime to steal someone's wallet. However, it is just stupid to leave your wallet sitting out where anyone can take it.

The comments on Indiegogo are enlightening. Especially comments like the one by stampinferret: she was raped while passed out from too much alcohol. Oh, if only she had owned pants like this. She didn't say "oh, if only I weren't so stupid as to drink until I pass out."

@a_random_guy

Curious: If someone were to pass out at a party and someone chopped off a finger would you then say, "It's stupid to leave your body just sitting out where anyone can take it"?

I completely get (and appreciate) your point about taking responsibility for your personal safety (which both sexes should do).

I've just seen and heard the "stolen wallet" and "fancy watch in a dangerous neighborhood" comparisons a lot in discussions about this topic. And I just don't think a stolen wallet (which you can leave at home, lock in a car, or stock with only the barest essentials to avoid a big loss) is an apt comparison to bodily harm.

I can attest that black women from bad neighborhoods do carry what the gentleman above so eloquently stated.

Personally I just remove my pussy, put it in a safe, lock it and then go out on the town.

sofar, if you were to get drunk, choose to go driving and run someone over can you claim you were too drunk to consent to driving and are therefore innocent and its the fault of the guy you hit?

sofar. Much has to do with the definition of rape getting smeared, to mean almost anything, including regretting it the next day.
Since sex is a wonderful act when done voluntarily and rape is a violation.
The closest comparison would be donating money (a wonderful act) vs having it stolen from you( a violation). But are effectively the same thing money goes from person A to person B.

The finger copping is not a good analogy since it is not something anyone would willingly do. But sex, people would willingly do that.

But drunkenly donating money, and regretting it later. Yes people have done it. Drunkenly having sex, then calling it rape, yes, people have done that too.
Also people have robbed drunk people, Easier than robbing sober ones, I guess.

"Hah, Ppen - that reminds me of snap-on tools."

With prybars, lockpicks and lubrication tools, this catalog may include something you need!

"When did we forget anti-violence work is a collective, not individualized, effort?"

In other words: until no one is raped, some of you will probably still be raped, 'cuz we need the victims for the cause.

You want to get drunk in chastitywear, go for it. It's still a slightly free country.

This seems a little more useful to me....

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20008347-10391704.html

As for blame-shifting, it certainly is nobody's fault but the rapist's, but if you're going to go walking downtown alone, drunk and wearing a micro-mini; while you don't deserve rape, what the hell did you think was going to happen?

I bet that poor girl in Ohio who was raped (via tongue) in front of that Chase bank wishes shehad a pair of these super under pants on.

People even witnessed it happening and took pictures and videos! Oh, the poor dear.

It's futile to pursue this argument with Feminists because their position does not concern the actuality of sexual assault, rather it's being employed to defend the claim that we live in a 'rape culture'.

Basically they can't acknowledge that a woman puts herself at greater risk by engaging in behaviors that will make her vulnerable to a predatory rapist. Because to acknowledge that rapists exploit vulnerability undermines the claim that society condones and promotes rape. Why should a rapist need to exploit a woman who is too drunk a/o isolated from people who will protect her if there is no sanction against rape and men condone rape?

When I saw that it was an AR, I had my hopes up that it would be more like this. My only objection to this clothing line is...there's nothing to protect the mouth.

INSERT BALL GAG JOKE HERE

As for the female condom with teeth...that's kind of stupid. Problems:

• it might be noticed - it has to be removed at some point, removing it could be the opening act by the rapist
• I can see a woman in a moment of passion forgetting she has one in and...well, no second date for you, sweetheart
• and the aforementioned fellow's medical bills
• and the potential for spilling his blood into one's vajayjay
• rapists might start carrying large dildos to "scope out" the lay of the land before going in themselves

Interesting idea. Needs work.

Curious: If someone were to pass out at a party and someone chopped off a finger would you then say, "It's stupid to leave your body just sitting out where anyone can take it"?

Essentially, that is what random said. If you get blind drunk and pass out, you bear some of the blame for what happens to you while passed out. The person who attacks you, robs you, or disfigures you bears the majority of the blame, but going around getting passed-out drunk in front of strangers is just inviting trouble.

And given how society's going these days, it's only a matter of time before someone smokes crack while drunk and excuses it by saying he was in a drunken stupor at the time.

And, furthermore ... what ... oh. Well, that losing a finger while drunk thing is probably next.

first thing is: happiness is a warm gun, and that is how you protect yourself.

"bbbbut, then I can't get drunk, 'cuz I might shoot someone!"

NOW YOU'RE GETTING THE IDEA, SWEETHEART!

where is it that we made responsibility a zero-sum game?!?

YOU have a responsibility to yourself. You are the ONLYONE invested in protecting yourself from harm, IN ALL EVENTS. Don't get so drunk that you cannot control if someone is going to cut off your finger, steal your wallet, or otherwise compromise your person. If you need situational awareness don't do something to remove it.

IT IS ALSO EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO NOT BE CRIMINAL TO EACH OTHER.

Except of course, that if people didn't practice criminal behavior, WE WOULDN'T NEED CRIMINAL LAWS!!!!

Laws get prosecuted AFTER a crime is committed, prevention is up to the individual.

So... once a guy broke into a friend's car... when we installed the cd player, we put it in securely, since the factory model actually only needed a tug to come out.

The thief was so pissed off that he broke the whole dashboard, and every window in the car.

IFF such undergarments worked, they aren't full body, and they prolly wouldn't protect you from someone violent... so?

The answer to all of this is 3 simple words.

Don't Be Stupid.

"it might be noticed - it has to be removed at some point, removing it could be the opening act by the rapist"

Unless we're talking family, which is a whole different kettle of fish, this would happen when and where exactly? *Most* rapes aren't planned. They're crimes of opportunity.

"and the potential for spilling his blood into one's vajayjay"

If you actually read the article, it prevents body fluids from transferring.

"I can see a woman in a moment of passion forgetting she has one in and...well, no second date for you, sweetheart"

Ummmm, no. That's like forgetting you have a tampon in. Unless you're extremely drunk, not gonna happen. And probably not even then. If you are single and extremely drunk, it would still be better to have one in, if you're prone to this sort of irresponsible behavior.

"rapists might start carrying large dildos to "scope out" the lay of the land before going in themselves"

Uhhh, that's one committed pervert! Again, most rapes aren't planned. And since he would have to hide aforementioned dildo, he would have to get it out of his bag, which would give the victim time to escape. I also doubt you would be able to tell if one were in with a dildo, since it sits very high in the vagina.

It's futile to pursue this argument with Feminists because their position does not concern the actuality of sexual assault, rather it's being employed to defend the claim that we live in a 'rape culture'.

Basically they can't acknowledge that a woman puts herself at greater risk by engaging in behaviors that will make her vulnerable to a predatory rapist. Because to acknowledge that rapists exploit vulnerability undermines the claim that society condones and promotes rape. Why should a rapist need to exploit a woman who is too drunk a/o isolated from people who will protect her if there is no sanction against rape and men condone rape?

Posted by: Umberto at November 7, 2013 2:23 PM
____________________________________

There's a big difference in protecting yourself by avoiding crowds of drunken near-strangers (many of whom may be good men but are too drunk to notice what's happening across the room) and being expected to protect yourself by, say, never being alone with a date in a car, even if it's a man you've known for years. In 1994, someone even wrote to Miss Manners, saying, in effect, that a woman who gets in her date's car without a chaperone and gets raped "should learn from the mistake and get on with life. The courts should not be cluttered with such nonsense."

To see MM's civil response, click here.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-10-28/features/9410280005_1_chaperones-tea-sandwiches-public-areas

Maybe letters like that are one reason MM and other, younger women are afraid that if they give the cynics (to put it politely) an inch, they'll take a mile?

Just to clarify, I meant to say "cynics (to describe them politely)."

I.e., they deserve a worse name than that.

I read this fantastic book, can't remember the name, about predators. It had a big emphasis on pedophiles.

It was written by a woman who advocated for a realistic approach to protecting yourself against sexual crimes.

Basically she said that people tend to visualize rapists as these monsters in trench coats when in reality they tend to be pillars of the community with fantastic verbal skills. This is especially the case with pedophiles.

This causes victims to be more likely to brush off misgivings because people tend to blame themselves for thinking badly about someone that doesn't "look bad" or someone they know (even if it is just from a bar).

Yeah PPen, I took a self defense class and most of the class was talking about just being more assertive and not being afraid to say no. Actual grappling was only a small part. Which disappointed me, as I was really wanting a grappling class.

In any case, yes if you're drunk and the victim of a crime you shouldn't be surprised, but at the same time if you're drunk and someone steals your wallet and they manage to catch him, no one says the thief should walk free because you were drunk.

In any case, yes if you're drunk and the victim of a crime you shouldn't be surprised, but at the same time if you're drunk and someone steals your wallet and they manage to catch him, no one says the thief should walk free because you were drunk.

And yet if your drunk and you willingly give you wallet to another drunk, no one calls that stealing.

1. Rape is about power, not about sex. It has nothing to do with what you are wearing.

2. The stupid wallet analogy is tired. Get the fuck over it. If you leave your wallet out and it gets stolen...IT'S STILL A CRIME!!! No matter what YOU did to make it easier for the wallet to be stolen, the person who stole it would still get charged for STEALING. And seriously - you're comparing a persons body to an inanimate object? Is that what you want to compare your daughter to? A TV? a wallet?

3. Getting drunk has a lot of consequences. Vomiting, hangover etc... getting raped should not be one of them.

4. A better analogy would be if you get shitfaced and try to go for a tattoo. Any reputable place will not give a drunk personal a tattoo. Why? Because they are too drunk to know what they are consenting to. In some laces I think it is illegal to tattoo a drunk person (I would have to check my sources on that). Some places make you sign a contract stating that you are sober before the artist will work on you. Why do you think that is?!?!!?

"3. Getting drunk has a lot of consequences. Vomiting, hangover etc... getting raped should not be one of them. " Karin

well of course not, dear lady.

But if wishes were wings, sheep would fly.

We are NOT talking about what should happen in polite society. Protecting yourself from other human beings IS NOT POLITE SOCIETY.

The basic assumption in self protection is that, while most people are nice, there are people out there who are NOT nice, who intend you harm.

This is not an indictment of all the nice people, rather of the one who would do you harm. The problem is, how do you tell which is which?

It helps when you are still in control of yourself, and conscious. But if you are NOT planning on staying in control of yourself, then what? Are you relying on the charity of strangers to keep you safe?

Are you mad, insane, stupid?
When you are an adult, there's only one person in control of you in this world. It's you.

Sure, there May Be other people that are there to help you, but WHY ARE YOU ARGUING THAT IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK OUT FOR YOU?

That's polite society, but it isn't a requirement, nor a given. Yet every young woman that gets so blasted she is unconscious trades on that idea that nothing should happen, and so, nothing WILL happen. When they get away with it a couple of times, they assume that it will always be thus...
right until reality kicks them in the face.
If they are lucky they only get robbed, unlucky they end up dead.

There is one fault in this. The person that commits a crime, is the person that commits the crime. They are altogether bad, and deserve the punishment that society metes out. It is their fault.

And the victim is the victim, and they are NOT at fault. It is worth noting that it doesn't mean that they can't learn from the bad situation they found themselves in. On the contrary, that is how you keep from being in that bad situation again.

And they tell two friends, and they tell their children, and the community learns from what happened to them. THAT SOMETIMES there are BAD people, and this is how you counteract that. Then the lessons, are keep an eye out, walk in well lit areas, pay attention, pepper spray, oh, and don't get drunk where you can't control your situation.

Will you explain to me WHY this is now somehow no longer legitimate to say? That telling you HOW NOT TO BE A VICTIM, IS SOMEHOW BLAMING THE VICTIM?

And your #4 fails because getting drunk at a party isn't the same as paying money for a service, in an establishment designed for that service. In case you didn't know, BARS actually WILL stop serving you if you are visibly drunk... but someplace private is not controlled in that way... Also, the BAR has no responsibility to define for you who you go home with, or to keep you safe once off their premises. Even Though they WILL likely protect you while you are inside, IF YOU ASK FOR PROTECTION.

#2 is irrelevant to the argument... yes, rape is different than stealing, which is why the punishment is substantially different, that doesn't change anything about the point at hand, which is protecting yourself.

IF #1 is true, THEN WHY ARE YOU ACTING AS THOUGH THERE IS NO WAY TO PROTECT YOURSELF!!!??!?!?!

IFF it's about power, then why give away your ability to counteract that power, by making yourself incapacitated?

IF you actually believe #1 is true, then you would argue that a suitable counter power is necessary, because NOT ONLY is it about power, but power perpetrated illegally. Therefore arguing that people's better angels, or their socialization, should be relied upon is laughable.
It is often pointed out that many rapists, even the soft ones who take advantage at parties, are serial in nature... they are PLANNING on this. So how do you take yourself out of their equation? Know the situations they target, and take yourself out of it.

Yes. They are bad people. They are bad people just like murderers and thieves. But do you insist on leaving your door unlocked because thieves should just know better?

Forewarned is Forearmed used to be common sense. Why are you arguing that is IS NOT?

Hey fuck you swissarmy. Get in my way and you'll see that there are plenty of things in this world that are out of your control - adult or not. Asshole

1. Rape is about power, not about sex. It has nothing to do with what you are wearing.

Robbery is about the thrill of fear, not about money. It has nothing to do with what is in the cash register

2. The stupid wallet analogy is tired. Get the fuck over it. If you leave your wallet out and it gets stolen...IT'S STILL A CRIME!!! No matter what YOU did to make it easier for the wallet to be stolen, the person who stole it would still get charged for STEALING. And seriously - you're comparing a persons body to an inanimate object? Is that what you want to compare your daughter to? A TV? a wallet?

2. The wallet analogy is apt APT!!! If you werent so eager to punish people for holding notions contrary to your religion dogma not one said steal a drunks wallet was not a crime. They just said there are some steps you can take to protect yourself. Why do you hate women? Why dont you want women to know what they can do to reduce the chances of them getting raped?

Also if your drunk and you willingly give you wallet to a drunk guy, is it still theft?

3. Getting drunk has a lot of consequences. Vomiting, hangover etc... getting raped should not be one of them.

3. Being accused of rape shouldnt be a consequence either. If both have been drinking, then technically isnt the woman guilty of rape as well as the guy was to drunk to consent?

4. A better analogy would be if you get shitfaced and try to go for a tattoo. Any reputable place will not give a drunk personal a tattoo. Why? Because they are too drunk to know what they are consenting to. In some laces I think it is illegal to tattoo a drunk person (I would have to check my sources on that). Some places make you sign a contract stating that you are sober before the artist will work on you. Why do you think that is?!?!!?

4. I come from a long line of function alcoholics, I've got a number of familly members who couldnt remember shit the next day but at the time they seemed more cognizant and aware than the sober people who were just tired from the days activities

I always ask this of women who hold your views. How much alcohol is too much? Passed out is too much obviously. But some women of you ilk claim using mouthwash is enough alcohol to invalidate consent.

In many state the legal limit is .08 to drive. If you are under that you are capable of consenting to signing contracts.

So give us a guideline, a graph with BAC and LOR (length of relationship) and tell us the EXACT deffition of too much, at what point it becomes rape, and why the fuck men can cailm they were too drunk to consent

"Hey fuck you swissarmy. Get in my way and you'll see that there are plenty of things in this world that are out of your control - adult or not. Asshole" Karin

awww, bless your little heart, kiddo. So you CAN fight if it's about all your presumptions and if they are correct.

And yet, not bringing one fact or argument.

Oh, wait. THIS is a fact: "there are plenty of things in this world that are out of your control"

Yep. And how I prepare for them, is how I protect myself from unforseen outcomes. But it is ALL on me to prepare, and no-one else.

Try again sweetie.

"Hey fuck you swissarmy. Get in my way and you'll see that there are plenty of things in this world that are out of your control - adult or not. Asshole"

WOW! That was unnecessary....

Well you backed her into a corner didn't you Swiss? And she came out swingin!

It's been my experience, Karin, that those who are on the weak end of the argument frequently resort to posturing and insulting language to distract from the fact that they cannot back up the argument with logic and/or facts.

I realize that you are a feminist, but being a feminist does not negate your responsibility in "polite society" to behave civilly. Do not confuse acting like a lady with being subservient. Feminism, being about the rights of women, frequently blurs the fact that acting like a lady brings it's own benefits. Sometimes, being civil and lady-like bring more benefits than posturing and anger. Anger in this context translates to weakness.

Those who are deaf to an angry shout may strain to hear a whisper.

And yeah, you're wrong. Even though it's a crime if your wallet got stolen, are you really all that surprised if you left it on top of the bar while you went to the bathroom?

It works the same with rape. While the fault and blame lies solely with the rapist, are you really all that surprised when you were walking drunk and stoned as fuck, alone downtown in a micro-mini? Can you possibly be that blind? Do you really think a sick pervert is going to pass up that opportunity? That's like asking the shark not to eat a wounded fish. Next you'll say it's the cops fault you were ticketed for speeding!

I will throw you a bone, however, and agree that rape is *sometimes* about power. Otherwise, they would seek consenting partners. In other cases, the rapist is just sick and warped in the head.

"Being accused of rape shouldn't be a consequence either. If both have been drinking, then technically isn't the woman guilty of rape as well as the guy was to drunk to consent?"

Very good point!

karin: "1. Rape is about power, not about sex."

That's so 1970's.

Power is a means to an end.

As wtf said, "...rape is *sometimes* about power..." But mostly it's about fucking someone who is not willing to be fucked, and power is the means by which the rapist overcomes the victims will.

Similarly:

- As you might already know, robbery is about money, and power - via use of a gun for example - is the means a robber uses to compel someone to surrender their money.

- Gender Feminism is all about preferential treatment and unearned privilege, and power - via the police, guns, courts and jails of the government - is the means gynocentric feminists seek to employ to force their more reasonable fellow citizens to comply.

For your reading pleasure and amusement, here's a comment thread on this subject. (The blog entry it's attached to is pretty bland.)

Things get interesting very quickly, when a woman at #8 opines that the panties might be a good idea. At #15 someone gets sarcastic with her, and her response at #20 is a gem; I expect I'll be quoting the last line for years to come.

The sparks really start to fly when the Giant Douchweasel arrives at #94 (but I might be prejudiced on that score).

I gotta say, though, those panties are ridiculous from a practical point of view. Imagine someone too drunk to remember the combination, and really, really needing to pee. . .