In Canada, It's Now Criminal To Be Upset Or Creeped Out By Somebody's Comment
Christie Blatchford writes for the Nat Post about a case involving a guy's tweets -- which a detective said involved no threats to anyone.
This is the trial of Gregory Elliott, a 53-year-old artist and father of four, who is charged with three counts of criminal harassment against three Toronto feminists.The officer in charge of the case, Toronto Police Detective Jeff Bangild, testified this week in his investigation, he found no tweets from Mr. Elliott that contained any threats to any of the women; had he, Det. Banglid said, he would have laid different charges.
Apparently, a criminal harassment charge is rooted in the alleged victim's perception of the offending conduct.
If said conduct, whether that be actually physically following someone or repeatedly communicating with that person, causes the person "reasonably, in all the circumstances, to fear for their safety", that's enough, says the Criminal Code.
This explains the tone of prosecutor Marnie Goldenberg's questions Thursday to Stephanie Guthrie, the 29-year-old feminist who was the first complainant to come forward about Mr. Elliott.
Several times, as Ms. Goldenberg would wrap up an area of examination with Ms. Guthrie, she would ask how she "felt" about a particular set of Tweets.
And Ms. Guthrie, who is preposterously articulate and self-possessed, would reply, "I was feeling a bit stalked" or "it made me feel scared for my safety ... I felt very much like he was obsessed with me, fixated on me" or "It led me to believe he had an unhealthy fixation ... "
You get the drift: She felt creeped out by Mr. Elliott; therefore, he is criminally charged.
Yet it's clear Ms. Guthrie can dish it out pretty well, too.
In 2012, the same year in which Mr. Elliott allegedly harassed her, she drew attention to a 25-year-old man from Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., who had invented a "beat up Anita Sarkeesian" video game, where users could punch an image of the feminist video blogger until the screen turned red.
Ms. Guthrie wondered aloud online if she should "sic the Internet" on the man and Tweeted "I want his hatred on the internet to impact his real-life experience."
Free speech is in jeopardy, and I believe feminism has caused a good bit of this jeopardy. As I tweeted recently:
@amyalkon
Those clamoring for Bora's head on pike are for women not as equals but eggshells
First of all, is there any such thing as a "Toronto feminist"?
It started as kind of joke for me, here on this blog, about how Canadians seem so pathetically eager to dance to American music without knowing any of the melodies.
Foreigners all too often (like Americans themselves, in the second half of my life) are ready to find meaning in the accusatory and condemnatory parts of our character. They're much less enthused about the parts demanding patience and stoic humility of oneself...
Just for example, if Canada has a legal principle equivalent to the first amendment, I don't know what it's called.
If any other nation on this globe has a legal principle equivalent to our First Amendment, I don't know what it's called.
And this goes on and on. All the virtues liberal ninnies seek to exploit were and are, in the first and last analysis, about being ready to fight (and maybe lose) for something you believe in.
Chickenshit feminism thinks it's all about contacting someone in the front office when your feelings have been hurt. If not the front office, it's about "sic"-ing the internet, rather than taking any risks on one's own behalf.
(Is that really how courage works? I wish someone had told me when I was four. My life would have been MUCH more indulgent.)
Real feminism knows better.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 12, 2014 2:19 AM
This statement is so right on:
Amy Alkon at January 12, 2014 6:39 AM
Yo I got stalked via messages.
Cracked me up.
Dunno why I had that reaction. I just would chuckle at every message.
I got shirtless pics (not of him he was fat but of his fit roommate) I got messages in Spanish (this guy didn't speak Spanish but somehow he knew I did).
In his fantasy I was some kind of party girl. A real playgirl. So he would tell me how much fun he had with me at the various parties I must be attending.
Ppen at January 12, 2014 7:34 AM
"But his thrice-offered drive, she said, was “a violation of my boundaries,” "
They went for coffee and this horrible scenario is what I imagine happened:
"Do you want a ride back?"
"No thanks"
"You sure?"
"Yes"
"It's no bother you sure?"
"Yes"
He also tried to pay the tab which was literally something Ted Bundy would do.
Ppen at January 12, 2014 7:59 AM
I always find it funny how its always the plain women who are worried about stalkers. I think she must have a very vivid fantasy life.
Sheep mommy at January 12, 2014 8:28 AM
If only the headline were true.
Canvasback at January 12, 2014 11:21 AM
Here's an account that's very sympathetic to Guthrie, but at least acknowledges the behavior that forms the basis of the complaint - he was spamming her hashtags!
http://torontoist.com/2012/11/online-harassment-is-more-prevalent-and-taken-more-seriously-than-ever/
..and here's an example of his ostensibly threatening communications ..
http://badcompanyhighnoon.blogspot.com/2012/11/oh-yes-its-greg-elliott-thats-one-bad.html
It's appears that Elliot is your garden variety PC narcissist ( 50K+ tweets ), and probably quite annoying to deal with, but not someone who threatens people. Guthrie on the other hand does threaten people, endorses violence, and acknowledged organizing a conspiracy against Elliot.
mmm at January 12, 2014 11:55 AM
Guthrie on the other hand does threaten people, endorses violence, and acknowledged organizing a conspiracy against Elliot.
But that's okay, because women making threats is empowering.
Hurting womens' feelings, though, is really, really baaaaad.
dee nile at January 12, 2014 12:19 PM
Thanks to those who did extra reading for more information.
And thanks for Sheepmommy foe updating the old & rude George Carlin joke…
> its always the plain women who are worried
…Because it doesn't even have to be true. There's a certain kind of person (of both sexes) who —on a subconchy psychomographic level— recognizes perfectly well that many stalkerish behaviors are an invitation to a dance. And they'll nonetheless reply "Hang on a sec, I need to strap up my ballet shoes...."
But many if not most women can have a bad moment with somebody, change their own behavior to avoid the freaks, and live happily ever after.
We've covered this.
> He also tried to pay the tab which was
> literally something Ted Bundy would do.
Boom!… Ppen crosses over to the Sarcastic Side of the Force. Welcome, little sister… I think you know everyone… Make yourself at home.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 12, 2014 12:43 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/01/12/in_canada_its_n.html#comment-4194577">comment from Crid [CridComment at Gmail]But many if not most women can have a bad moment with somebody, change their own behavior to avoid the freaks, and live happily ever after.
Yes. Very true.
There's a line from Gavin de Becker, "Men who cannot let go choose women who cannot say no."
They might choose other women, just because, but as David Buss showed in a presentation at a conference, felons were able to pick out who to victimize (who was victimized) by watching video of how people walked.
The notion of feminists that we can't "blame the victim" has unintended consequences -- that we can't even talk about why people are victimized, which is how we might help them prevent it.
Feminism has become about the infantilization of women along with the demonization of men for "crimes" that we used to call "flirting" or "compliments."
You don't want to be flirted with? Give out those vibes or tell a guy that you'd like your relationship at work to remain "a little more professional."
Yes, shockingly, this requires you to do what men do -- open their mouths and say, "Hey, that bugs me" when something bothers them.
Anyone who can't do that doesn't belong in an adult workplace.
Amy Alkon at January 12, 2014 1:06 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/01/12/in_canada_its_n.html#comment-4194579">comment from Amy AlkonPS Wrote about this here:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/01/axing-a-girl-ou.html
Amy Alkon at January 12, 2014 1:07 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/01/12/in_canada_its_n.html#comment-4194580">comment from Amy AlkonA quote from my column at that link above:
Amy Alkon at January 12, 2014 1:08 PM
"The notion of feminists that we can't "blame the victim" has unintended consequences -- that we can't even talk about why people are victimized, which is how we might help them prevent it."
And we can't talk about how their choices directly harm their children.
I grew up with alof of women who were abused (including my mom) and the idea that they are nice simply because they are passive or victims of a man is untrue. They are downright cruel if you get in the way of their fantasy.
I've also noticed the relationship with my mom flows better if I act like an abuser. I don't because it is not in my nature but I have and she is actually nice to me then.
Ppen at January 12, 2014 1:39 PM
Dayum, Peepers.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at January 12, 2014 3:56 PM
Women aren't passive when they consent to be in relationships with abusive people. Giving in to one's compulsions is not the same as being victimized. It's appropriate to call people out for choosing abusive relationships - and compassionate to point out a void that would best be filled some other way.
I had a chance to reconnect with a woman I had been friends with in grade school. She had moved around between foster homes and family friends. When we reconnected as adults, she had children and had recently moved to get distance from their abusive fathers. She said very plainly that she did not know how to choose good men, and she was going to stay single and focus on giving her kids the extra care they needed to get through the issues she created by way of the fathers she had chosen. She died shortly thereafter, from a chronic health problem. I adore her.
Michelle at January 13, 2014 12:05 PM
Hurting womens' feelings, though, is really, really baaaaad.
Posted by: dee nile at January 12, 2014 12:19 PM
*Exactly.* Drives. Me. Crazy.
Michelle at January 13, 2014 12:38 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2014/01/12/in_canada_its_n.html#comment-4196847">comment from MichelleSo sorry to hear about the death of your friend, Michelle, but I admire her realization and her vow to stay single and focus on her kids.
Amy Alkon at January 13, 2014 12:49 PM
"First of all, is there any such thing as a "Toronto feminist"?"
Well, there's a big-boned gal from southern Alberta, if that counts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRP0lfBMsUM
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at January 13, 2014 1:56 PM
Thank you. Me too - I'm glad I got to tell her so in person.
Michelle at January 13, 2014 2:56 PM
I am American who lived in Canukstan. I am now charged with this for trying to get this, get my ex who raped me to divorce me Serving him. . Cops there are protecting him. He said he was scared. he admitted to drugging me with GHB. I do not use drugs nor drink. GHB FYI is known, to cause instant kidney damage. He damaged my kidneys. They have a charter right in Canada but they have a clause in that says the govt can take back all rights at will. no rights. they have no say in their laws no say in budgets. And they say they have free speech but you cannot say a lot of things there. If you said as we often do in the US that you would want to strangle some one or you swear you are going to kill them. ie kids from parents, well you can be charged like attempted murder. The word feminist is ok with me. I am in my later years and remember the feminist movement as a child. I reaped their work. But up north women like to bitch whine and can legally topless in Ont. but then scream if they are raped ooglked and put down. The word feminnazi fits them. Angry women who like to attack and be mean but cannot take any criticism back I came I saw and left Canada and came back so grateful for our laws. Canada is a weak nation. They threaten more than they do. I m glad for the rights we have and for the women here and men. I know why we are a great nation with an open Mind. they are so closed off.
Women there dress with little clothing less than young girls do here and put out more than most women do here. Then when pregnant go on welfare even the educated ones. American women have much to be proud of and thankful for and for the men who changed with the times and love and protect us as we do you, thank you and God Bless. Thanks for the article and letting me vent. Stay out of Canada. When trolls have nothing better to do then get drunk get high fight and whine.
anon at August 9, 2015 6:42 PM
Leave a comment