A Man Is Out Of A Job (And Much More) Over This Innocuous Crap
A man's life was destroyed over hearsay, miscommunication, and misjudged emotions -- and because of the pernicious thing that feminism has become.
As I've been posting here as of late, women used to demand to be treated like equals (and I'm, of course, all for that). But now feminists demand to be treated like eggshells.
That's how a mob brought down Bora Zivkovic, who became the eye of the firestorm over what was deemed -- eek, SEXUAL HARASSMENT! -- but which in no way met the legal standard (more on that below)...or, frankly, the standards of a reasonable person.
By "reasonable person" I mean a person who hasn't been drinking the feminist Kool Aid that says any man who makes any statement or joke less sexually neutral than "Why did the chicken cross the road?" must be fired, shamed, financially ruined, and squashed like a bug between the thighs of Andrea Dworkin.
And, getting back to Zivkovic, what horrible, egregious things, exactly, went on?
From a Cosmo piece by Michelle Ruiz:
Take the case of Hannah Waters, a 27-year-old science writer, and Bora Zivkovic, the influential (now former) editor of Scientific American magazine's blog network. Waters says Zivkovic began promoting her blog posts online after they met in 2010, which she says helped launch her career. But she told friends she was disturbed by what she describes as his lingering hugs and a Twitter DM that read "I love you!!!" By 2011, he'd hired her to write for Scientific American. At a "tweetup" for science writers in New York, she says she felt uncomfortable when he gave her a rose from a street vendor and "jokingly" called her his "concubine."Waters hesitated to call their interactions sexual harassment at first, but in 2013, she and two other writers, Monica Byrne and Kathleen Raven, wrote blog posts accusing Zivkovic of sexual harassment. "It wasn't overt, textbook, grabbing a butt, or asking me on a date," says Waters of her experience with Zivkovic, "but I felt deeply uncomfortable and sexualized and it created anxiety problems for me. I wanted to make a career as a writer on my own merit, but it felt like it wasn't my work that was being elevated."
Zivkovic, on the other hand, flatly denies he acted inappropriately toward any of the women and says the incidents they labeled harassment were misunderstandings that didn't happen in professional settings or situations. "This is a small community, and we were all friends or trying to become friends," he says. "We were all together building a new, more egalitarian world of online science writing. We all met in social settings and had drinks together. Nobody felt this was a working environment."
Zivkovic says the "concubine" comment, for example, was an "innocuous joke." He says he and Waters were smoking outside a bar when he bought a rose for his wife, who was inside. When the salesman gave him two, he says he joked--to the salesman, not Waters--"What's that, one for the wife, one for the concubine?" As for the Twitter DM, Zivkovic says the word love can convey many things, including admiration and friendship. Hugs, he notes, were common in the community.
According to Ruiz, Raven did eventually dip her toe into adult behavior, and here's how a proto-adult -- as opposed to an woman-child infantilized by feminism -- behaves.
In the aftermath of the controversy, Raven says she's more likely to call out behavior that makes her uncomfortable. "At a past job, an editor sent me some Facebook messages, saying, 'How old are you? How long have you and your husband been married? Your blouse looks nice.' I took this guy aside, and I said, 'Those comments were inappropriate, and could you please not make them?' He didn't seem happy about being confronted, but he did stop messaging me with personal questions. These are small things that most women push aside, but it was interfering with my ability to focus at work."
Sadly, life is not one giant, cushy down pillow. So...if someone is being an asshole or something bothers you, and if you are not an earthworm or indoctrinated by feminism, you open your nice big adult mouth and say something about it.
If, however, the person engaging in the behavior you are troubled by refuses to stop, and if that person happens to be your boss or your co-worker, well, then you have a case. That's because the legal definition of actual sexual harassment involves "severe and pervasive" and also debilitating behavior. And then there's what what Zivkovic was accused of, which, sickeningly, is the sort of "sexual harassment" that's defined as "whatever feminists say it is."
As I put it in a column:
Wayne State University law professor Kingsley Browne explains in "Biology at Work" that the "hostile environment" type of sexual harassment involves a work environment "permeated with sexuality." Browne told me via email: "The legal question is whether the harassment is sufficiently 'severe or pervasive,' and the way you show that something is pervasive is to show that there's a lot of it."
And looking back on these cases, Monica Byrne apparently knew Zivkovic for about a month. At a lunch, she launched into talk of a strip club, and Zivkovic got a little icky-personal about sex. Byrne later emailed Zivkovic to tell him she was uncomfortable.
Zivkovic apologized and doesn't seem to have contacted her again after that. In other words, his behavior in no way could be considered "pervasive." Well, not if someone's not on a witch hunt and looking to take somebody down, and never mind if they're actually guilty of what they're accused of.
Also, as I noted previously, she wasn't employed by Zivkovic, and lunch doesn't count as a "workplace," even if she was looking to do some work.
Hannah Waters apparently never said anything to Zivkovic about her discomfort. And her comment on her piece about this reflects a woman who needs to work on her self-worth and maybe her science writing, as well as putting on her big girl panties and learning to speak up when she's uncomfortable:
After a hug goodbye that lasted a second too long, we split ways, my head spinning. Did I imagine that? Was he trying to sleep with me? And then: Am I actually any good at writing, or was he just supporting me because he was sexually interested in me?
More from Waters:
No one should be made to feel this way, no less someone early in her or his career. The nagging self-doubt is enough to turn people away from doing the things they love.
Really? If that's all it takes, then they just don't love those things enough or they just aren't cut out for being treated equally -- with men, that is -- and they should stay home baking cookies or get a nice job in Better Dresses.
And read the account by Kathleen Raven. Oh, the horror, the horror. After what looks like a period of years, she finally, finally told him she had some limits. And guess what: When she did, he apologized and stopped.
As for the motive of women who make accusations of sexual harassment over a bit of innocuous behavior (that is not anywhere in the neighborhood of either "severe" or "pervasive"), I suspect that it's a way for weak people to have unearned power over others.
As for the results of this thinking and behavior (and the increasing danger men have of losing everything on a mere accusation), I hear from more and more men that they avoid saying much of anything to women in the workplace.
Thanks, wymyn!
Finally, a particularly ugly bit of business is how so many "science" writers closed their eyes and hopped like bunnies onto the Bora Witch Hunt train. Yes, these fine, self-proclaimed "skeptics" believed him guilty as they heard just one side of the story and dutifully accepted that his behavior was "sexual harassment" simply because his accusers said so.
And getting back to the behavior of the women: Sadly, some women are raised to be adult infants, and just don't have the chops to function in the adult world -- a world where conversation or behavior sometimes makes you uncomfortable, and you sometimes (gasp!) have to squeak out a remark like, "Shut your yap, bub...I don't want to hear it."
YES!!!
Richard Jowsey at February 16, 2015 11:03 PM
"It created anxiety problems"-- is a passive statement. Either see a therapist,pop a pill or grow up. He sounds like an ass,but so what? these aren't adult women,these are little girls,wanting someone to make the bad man go away.
kateC at February 17, 2015 12:02 AM
squashed like a bug between the thighs of Andrea Dworkin
I feel sexually harassed by that statement. I'll need a on-going treatment of brain bleach to forget ever reading that bit o' prose.
I R A Darth Aggie at February 17, 2015 6:06 AM
He shouldn't have lost his job but if multiple people are complaining about you, re-examine your behavior.
NicoleK at February 17, 2015 6:28 AM
"He shouldn't have lost his job but if multiple people are complaining about you, re-examine your behavior."
Not necessarily. In this case, the complainants have pretty much admitted that they coordinated their stories. It has the look of a conspiracy.
And to follow up on what Amy said, I am extremely careful about what I say to women at work. With very few exceptions, I do not say anything to a woman that is not directly work related, nor do I say anything non-work-related where a woman might overhear me. I have a reputation around the office for being standoffish, which I cop to, but there's a reason why. Better to be thought of as a snob than to get canned for an off-hand remark.
Cousin Dave at February 17, 2015 6:44 AM
And: This is Scientific American reaping the whirlwind. They went all in for leftist pseudo-science in the mid-90s, and they have been one of the main "we can't let the truth get in the way" prosthelytizers for the fraud that is human-caused global warming. I dropped my subscription back around 1995 and I haven't missed it.
Cousin Dave at February 17, 2015 6:47 AM
My boss cares deeply about our product.
He works lots of hours, follows up in detail, and communicates very well the priorities of his bosses.
We all have a great reputation, because of this (and, because we're all just that good, of course).
But he is occasionally inappropriate.
Not just gender things, but race things. Nothing overt, and he's in NO way mean about it. Stuff just comes out of his mouth.
At one point he read something and I turned into his "work wife". That comment lingered for a few weeks. Taken in the whole context of who he is, it just doesn't matter enough to get worked up over.
(It was obvious he meant it as a compliment. Most of his slightly-inappropriate comments are... One was to an Asian about math. It's just - he is who he is. The flip side is, you always know where you stand.)
flbeachmom at February 17, 2015 7:20 AM
Like CD said, Scientific American went down the left wing pseudo-science rabbit hole decades ago. And this is where it leads. And it wasn't just climate change. They have completely rejected the concept of objective reality. Everything is filtered based on your 'race/gender/class'. While I have seen a yellow/red/white photon but I've yet to see a rich/poor one or a male/female one. (Don't tell anyone, but I've never seen a black photon!)
I expect similar stories out of Science News. They went the same route about the same time.
And NicoleK, the point of the story is there weren't complaints. There was one complaint from several people at the same time. He did change his behavior once people complained but it was too late. One complaint is all it takes.
Ben at February 17, 2015 8:44 AM
One complaint is all it takes.
Try to remember that when you're the one people are complaining about.
drcos at February 17, 2015 9:13 AM
I have known Bora Zivkovic since childhood. We remained friends ever since. When I first read blogs and accusations, and heard the outcome, I simply could not believe it! If anyone knows Bora well, next to his family, it would be me.
Bora was known as a super intelligent and geeky man. Yes, with quite quirky and intelligent humour..a man who can speak his mind and can be honest and real when he is at ease with someone. Genuine. He would joke and would not think of it twice, as there was never any bad intention.
Hugs, long hugs, strong hugs, it is all a way of expressing you are a friend and you care. Why does it fall under harassment! Don't ruin someones life because you FELT something that was out of the ordinary for you...Question yourself why it bothers you? Really...a long hug, a handshake too strong...it bothers you?!! A word that made you feel threatened? you got anxieties over that? Grow up you insecure little girl!
Showing emotions is common in our culture...being upfront and honest. But remaining a gentleman. Bora was always a gentleman.
I had to laugh at that was written in those blogs and also be disappointed at how far it went with taking one innocent man down!!
How can anyone take what is written there at a face value. Bora should be given his job back, with an apology! The whole situation should have been investigated and questioned prior to making any big decisions.
Olivera at February 17, 2015 9:45 AM
The idea that such a delicate, sensitive creature as a woman could be trusted in a business or political leadership position is unthinkable! The threat of "nagging self-doubt" is just too pervasive to risk.
Jay R at February 17, 2015 10:55 AM
"After a hug goodbye that lasted a second too long, we split ways, my head spinning. Did I imagine that? Was he trying to sleep with me?"
Oh, for f&cks sake! Yes, every guy is trying to bed every woman. NOT!
That lady needs to get a grip on reality - not everyone she meets wants to sleep with her.
charles at February 17, 2015 1:56 PM
I think that Amy's right about the motive in these cases - that the accuser is often seeking power over the accused.
We've had several episodes of the same kinds of public charges of harassment at my school and they've almost always been motivated by the desire to take down an authority figure or a political enemy.
You can tell because the accuser never confronts the accused or goes through proper channels to complain, rather they announce their charges through a public forum and try to whip up a mob.
And when someone asks why they didn't follow the expected protocol, they double down and claim that they're afraid of the person and shouldn't be expected to trust the administration to do the right thing - because we all know the university administrations love protecting sexual harassers.
kiki at February 17, 2015 2:11 PM
"prosthelytizers for the fraud that is human-caused global warming"
Goddamned liberal NASA scientists are in on it, too!
Bunch of lying commie anti-American bastards. They probably get their paychecks from the Zionist Occupation Government!
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 17, 2015 2:28 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2015/02/17/a_man_is_out_of.html#comment-5856037">comment from kikiThe thing I observe is that the people who get all het up over inconsequential *perceived* injuries is that they are never the people who are doing a lot of impressive things, making big headway with their work, etc.
Amy Alkon at February 17, 2015 2:36 PM
That's a good point: in fact it's factually true that all three of these women have achieved very little in their careers as science writers. As they say, it's usually the ones with the least to show who scream the loudest. And it's not hard to see how their professional failures and insecurities could have led all three of them to think that they could win a fast ticket to fame by tarring Zivkovic. Can't say it's worked too well for them - they are still unknown writers, known only for destroying this man's life.
Fellow traveler at February 17, 2015 4:05 PM
if multiple people are complaining about you, re-examine your behavior.
Well, okay, always good to examine your behavior, whether or not anybody's complaining but look at the complaints above -- how weak-tea'd they are.
Epictetus: "It is not events that disturb us but the views we take of them."
I sure wouldn't be all panty wadded if these things had happened to me. Why? Because I do not approach life as a wounded bird looking everywhere to find victimization.
And if I felt a hug was yicky and went on too long, I'd be brash, and say something -- in a jokingly brash way. I wouldn't go home and crawl under the table and fret about it for a year and then try to take a good man down over it.
By the way, Bora Zivkovic, before being ruined by these women and their "science" writer minions, was one of those guys who's just excited as hell by science. He's an includer, and wanted to bring bajillions of people into it to spread the word. And he did. He got a lot of people, men and women, into science blogging who probably would never have thought about it or thought they could.
And now, we've got three angry crones sitting on a branch, still crowing, "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!" because they were either born worms or too infantilized by feminism and institutions influenced by it to speak up for themselves.
There was an interesting Emily Nussbaum profile of Joan Rivers in the New Yorker the other day. There's a woman I admire -- and admired. I got to say so one day when she came into a cafe where I write, and I'm so glad about that. That woman and a number of older women I know who were in the work world when it was really tough -- think about how they behaved, the balls they had, and contrast them with these sniveling biddies who brought a good man down and made the dissemination of science the worse for it.
Amy Alkon at February 17, 2015 5:30 PM
Olivera, loved your comment, and you're right.
Amy Alkon at February 17, 2015 5:32 PM
> And if I felt a hug was yicky
> and went on too long, I'd be
> brash, and say something -- in
> a jokingly brash way.
☑
People who respond to petty intrusions that way usually get good at it... Their 'brash' jokes are genuinely funny for everyone present, whether they'd taken note of the clumsiness or not.
There are a lot of great comments on this one. I particularly like how several people shot down NicoleK's comment...
> if multiple people are complaining…
Excellence and achievement and decency don't happen by taking a quick poll of nearby opinions all the time. The average collection of workers in most any enterprise is likely to be a bunch of distracted idiots. People who are thinking about excellence all the time, and pushing for excellent projects, don't waste their time by taking the emotional temperature of every room when they walk through the door.
Props to KateC (seriously) for noting the passivity of a statement that was offered for childish manipulation anyway. I mean, these complainers are already layers-deep in their foolishness.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at February 17, 2015 7:16 PM
Update!
etc.America is more concerned with the emotions of ninnies nowadays than with the creation of the wealth those ninnies presume to spend.
Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at February 17, 2015 7:20 PM
I am always very careful what I say around anyone at work. The women at work can often be more raunchy than any of the men, and there are a few I know I can joke with who aren't over-sensitive prima donnas. But if I get any hint that a woman is the type of feminist who is of the "special snowflake" type, I keep my distance. I'll do the minimal interaction necessary for the task at hand if I must and while I'll be collegial, I won't be very friendly, and they won't get any extra help from me; I'll avoid them if at all possible.
Many women fought to be taken seriously as equals in the workplace, and many have largely succeeded. But it's feminists like these weak women who are ruining it for all the others.
But the upside is that feminism has descended to the point where they are destroying the very success they achieved. In the end, feminism will circle back around and create the very "patriarchy" they claim to be against.
I love irony...
LostSailorNY at February 17, 2015 7:56 PM
Gog, sorry, but the only credible evidence (satellite data) shows that global warming is not occurring and hasn't for two decades now. The GISS and East Anglia temperature databases are complete bullshit, of very low quality and heavily massaged to show the trends that the advocates want them to show, and this is demonstrated by the East Angila leaked emails. If you take their models, plug in the conditions that existed in 1990, and run them to today, they predict that runaway warming should have alreay occured.
James Hanson predictd in the 1980s that Manhattan would be under 25 feet of water by 2007. We know from their own statements that global warming proponents feel that their belief is so important that they need to frighten people and that the truth can't be allowed to get in the way of that. The theory is constructed so as to be non-falsifiable: every single weather event of any sort "proves" that global warming is occurring. There is no possible weather or climate occurrence that would be accepted as contrary evidence by the believers. It's far more of a religious belief than a scientific theory.
What it comes down to: It's a all a pretense to rationalize authoritarian government. I can remember back in the '70s when these sorts of people were all spun up about global cooling. Their prescription for that was exactly as their prescription for global warming: authoritarianism, deindustrialization, and a huge decline in the average person's standard of living. (The elites, of course, would retain everything that they have now.) It's all a bullshit excuse from people who crave absolute power over others.
Consider Al Gore and his 22,000 kWh per month house. As Glenn Reynolds keeps saying, "I'll believe it's a crisis when the people who are insisting that it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis."
Cousin Dave at February 18, 2015 11:17 AM
Thanks, Cousin Dave.
I'll alert NASA that you've debunked them and their Al Gore-loving "scientists" with their "studies" and their "evidence". Filthy liberal swine, how dare they. How DARE they!
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 18, 2015 1:31 PM
I have a female colleague at work calls me "dear." If I work there for the next 24,000 years I will never call a female employee "dear." If she does it it's endearing (sorry); if I do it I'm on the next train to re-education camp.
And I'm on a last-name basis with everybody. I'm considered strange for this behavior, but if you design a system in which I can lose my career because somebody FELT that I was being inappropriately familiar, my only defense is to never be familiar.
1MC at February 18, 2015 6:22 PM
1MC, I sure understand. This is what it's come to. The workplace now is a place where you -- realistically -- might lose your job because some woman might accuse you of calling her "Dear."
Amy Alkon at February 18, 2015 8:26 PM
Men are basically designed to believe women and come to their aid whenever women are in trouble.
This is a feature, not a bug, but it can be exploited to nefarious ends.
Lance Meibos at February 18, 2015 10:22 PM
This kind of thing is why I try to avoid working with, hiring, and especially mentoring or being friendly with women in the workplace. It is just too dangerous and not worth the hassle.
This kind of self-centered female infant bear trap is far too common, and there is absolutely no way to tell. They presume telepathy, and have absolutely no conscience about destroying anyone who isn't telepathic.
Look at what she did to her kind, friendly, and generous mentor. She tried to destroy him, because he was kind, open with her, and helped her career. There is a name for that. It's called traitorous backstabbing. It's like shooting the person who pulled you out of the water when you were drowning because they smile at you.
It is completely insane.
So if you are a woman, and you wonder why men avoid you in the workplace, or why they won't help you? This is why.
Paul at February 18, 2015 10:57 PM
In light of what has just happened to Tim Hunt this seems remarkably prescient.
I just Googled Bora to see what was up with him and it's a little distressing to see that this is the latest news -- Bora has been shoved down to the margins of the science world and is probably struggling to make ends meet because of this rabid shaming culture that lynches first and asks questions later.
Poor him.
Poor us.
Kamakiri at June 13, 2015 7:39 PM
Is it harassment or not? In the end it doesn't matter because it is a men hunt. We have reversed the witch hunt. Now is the time of hunting men for being men. Some go over the line, some not. But who is speaking up for the male victims? Nobody but men rights activists and specialized workers. And male victims are just as numerous as female ones, if not moreso because of their socially invisible status.
So this is not about protecting women, or accusing wrongdoers. This is about killing Man and deifying Woman. It doesnt matter if Bora did cross the line (and reading from the link given above, I tend to believe he did). What matters is Bora has a pair and that is Evil and must be taken down. The Male power must be taken down for the new world order of eternal slavery to flourish.
So in the end, saving the males means saving the male abusers means saving ourselves. Ironic isnt it?
quintal at July 8, 2015 3:47 AM
Don't feel too sorry for Bora. He didn't have much sympathy for the three young men falsely accused of raping the stripper at the Duke Lacrosse party. So maybe he's getting a taste of his own medicine now.
Emilia at November 4, 2015 6:02 PM
You ROCK! Thank you, than you for speaking out against this kind of crap. It really makes me angry how many women are throwing men under the bus for minor things that they should totally be able to deal with themselves. Things have gone way, way to far into crazy land with feminism these days. Women are not only the priviliged but the entitled and the sadistic when it comes to trying to ruin a man's life/career over mundane/minor crap.
Eve Libertone at May 18, 2016 4:36 PM
Thanks for posting this Amy. This is EXACTLY what happened at my last job six years ago and, yes, I'm still angry and bitter about it.
(And I admit that if I had my druthers, I'd post the web address of the woman who fucked me over. She's a psychotherapist, believe it or not.)
What 1MC said. I am *never* going to allow myself to trust a female co-worker again, about anything. Never, never, never.
qdpsteve at May 18, 2016 6:17 PM
Well, it's about time to frame women for sexual harassment.
Like we beguin to close women only business, or force to open women only associations.
Not to be anti women, but to teach than the gell they build WILL affect them too.
Tout venant at May 19, 2016 5:32 PM
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