Judge: Sexual Regret On A Woman's Part Should Not Be Judged Sexual Assault On A Man's Part
Yet another unbelievable case -- just a different flavor of injustice to a man on campus than the Amherst case.
The Amherst case is the one where a passed-out guy to whom a woman gave a blow job was himself accused of sexual assault for what happened to him and was thrown out of school. Yes, he was the victim of the assault, blacked out drunk, but she said she didn't consent -- to an act she performed on him while he was drunkenly unconscious.
Ashe Schow writes about the current UCSD case at the WashEx:
A California judge just issued a win to proponents of due process in campus sexual assault hearings.Judge Joel M. Pressman deemed a University of California-San Diego campus hearing "unfair," ruling that the hearing panel limited the accused student's right to due process.
The accused student, listed as John Doe, had sued the university after being suspended for sexual assault without due process. John claimed that his right to cross-examine his accuser and adverse witnesses was limited, and Pressman agreed.
John was only allowed to submit questions to the hearing panel to be asked of his accuser, named in the lawsuit as Jane Roe. Of the 32 questions submitted by John, only nine were asked, and only after the questions were reviewed by the hearing chair.
The horrifying thing is that this girl was allowed to bring a case of sexual regret and her hidden and unspoken desires not to participate in a sex act and characterize this a sexual assault by the guy. I was reading the ruling the other day, but the file is no longer at the link, so I got this off Scott Greenfield's blog:
"Jane stated that she physically wanted to have sex with [the accused] but mentally wouldn't." This reservation, Pressman wrote, should not be seen as John's fault, "particularly if she is indicating physically she wants to have sex."
Greenfield explains:
This is a critical starting point, as it's one that is almost invariably denied and decried. "Sexual assault isn't about post-hoc regret," the argument goes, but it was here. For those who contend that any formulation of consent will somehow prove foolproof, consider that the female student here, as found by the college hearing panel, "stated that she physically wanted to have sex . . . but mentally wouldn't." What does that mean?The judge took it to mean that Roe physically indicated a desire to have sex, but Doe was to be held accountable for Roe's secret mental state, as she determined afterward as her regret sank in, and complained about four months later? Well yes, that's exactly what it means to the college disciplinary panel.
Despite this finding, and Doe's denial, the hearing panel concluded that John Doe was guilty and suspended him.
And most disgustingly, when the guy refused to take responsibility (and punishment) for something he didn't do, Schow explains that the university kangaroo court-ers decided to really sock it to him:
Upon the finding of responsibility, John was first sanctioned to a one-month suspension and required to attend sexual harassment training and counseling. He was also told never to contact Jane again, "due to the potential for ongoing harm to the complaining witness."After John appealed the ruling, his sanctions were increased to a one-year suspension (meaning he would have to reapply to the university), put on non-academic probation and required to attend ethics workshops - on top of the original sanctions.
When John appealed that decision, his sanctions were increased yet again to a one-year-and-one-quarter-suspension.
I'd like to see young men who are put through this start getting lawyers and suing the hell out of these universities. Only when it's more costly to apply these sick, Kafkaesque principles of injustice than to get the federal funds for following the Obama admin's reading of Title IX will colleges stop doing it.







Well, it sounds like he did sue. I imagine he"ll win pretty easily. These stories are so weird, I don't know how to discuss them. It feels like I'm discussing fiction or something. Is this stuff for real?
Allison at July 15, 2015 6:19 AM
I'd like to see him get a buttload in civil damages.
Amy Alkon at July 15, 2015 6:23 AM
I don't think I could be patient and logical and mature enough to sue. I think I'd kill her, and the "court", and end up in prison for life. I hope he gets every penny that University has, and that they're forced to close.
Short of that, can he have her arrested for rape? She admitted what she did.
momof4 at July 15, 2015 7:13 AM
Sue, sue, sue ! Beat every dollar you can out of these fascist pigs. Expose every name in every venue so that everyone knows who these asses are and can, deservedly, publicly denigrate them.
Edward Lunny at July 15, 2015 8:07 AM
Agree w/momof4.
Before harming anyone just get a lawyer (hell get a law student that wants experience) that gets pissed off at this and arrest/sue until the courts say enough.
Start w/retraining orders, go criminal even though that may not be applicable and go to civil after that.
Drag it out w/continuances at their cost (lawyer needs to buy in but what a hoot). A new hobby is born.
Bob in Texas at July 15, 2015 8:10 AM
"Only when it's more costly . . ."
Yep, I agree. This isn't about justice for either party. It is about money. So, it needs to be made about money and sue, sue, and sue.
charles at July 15, 2015 8:31 AM
momof4, sadly, the standards are one-way -- for example, women who engage in drunk sex with men have been able to charge the men while not being charged themselves.
Amy Alkon at July 15, 2015 10:50 AM
Hear hear Amy!!
And, I'm with Edward. Sue the living shit out of these universities. Also go after the pompous asshole Stalinist administrators personally and empty their ridonkulously inflated bank accounts. They richly deserve to have their livelihoods destroyed for giving the go-ahead to these cartoon kangaroo witch hunts.
qdpsteve at July 15, 2015 12:00 PM
I normally just lurk around here, and don't comment much because I feel like if I do, I need to stick around to respond to counterpoints and I just really don't have the time or energy to do that. But I just have to point something out here.
When I have told my story here and in other forums, I get a lot of what is being said above - "why didnctha just SUE EM ALL THE WAY TO THE SOOOOOPREEM COURT!!!!"
While stories like this are schaudenfreudilicious, and I think we'll be seeing more of them in future, consider what a young man is up against when things like this happen. In fact, don't consider it - try it as an experiment, or if you prefer, "performance art" (scenario modified to fit my experience) -
Go to a lawyer. Tell him you are a law student at a local private university. You have been accused of sexual assault and/or harassment (does it really matter? Once you said "sexual" whatever comes next is irrelevant). You want him/her to represent you against the school.
This is what you just said, although you didn't say it -
I want you to represent me. Yes, little ol' you. I am offering you the opportunity to go into mortal combat against established federal law (Title IX) in defense of a sexual predator, which I must be, because women don't ever lie about these things and if you think otherwise, you are well advised to keep it to yourself. But you will get to do this in the pursuit of truth and justice and the American way. Which makes your 'nads tingle, I know. 'Cause we allll know thats why people go to law school.
But wait!! There's more -
Primus: Black letter law says a private university can expel any student for anything at anytime (private property is sacred to the left when its their private property) and any case you bring is unlikely to survive summary judgment on the grounds this is a private school.
Secundus, if you do survive summary judgment (which is only going to happen if the complainant is a woman or a minority and so protected under laws that prevent discrimination), all the while you toil away at this case all by your lonesome, the entire law school will deploy a platoon sized element of lawyers on retainer. Also, they will have the benefit of every associate instructor who wants tenure who will be happy to log hours doing research. The same opportunity for extra credit will extend to every student, be they a blue haired SJW, pitiful white knight, or just a good, old fashioned amoral brown noser. The potential manpower (hope that term doesn't trigger anybody - on second thought, nope, I don't care) deployed against you will number at least in the dozens. Depending on the size of the school, it could be up to a hundred little Adderal fueled minions poring through the databases, all dying to be the one that comes up with the legal stake to drive through your misogynist heart.
Tritus: You won't be advised when this happens, but you will become that dreaded, neckbearded scourge upon the land known as an "MRA." You don't have to agree, or even know what that is. Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook will pronounce this sentence, and your career will quite possibly never recover. Hatred, death threats, decreased job opportunities, slander and pigeonholing will be your lot if this thing ever makes it into the court system. Even if you win, you lose.
The school knows this, and if they can get some bottom feeding politician interested (I'm looking at you, Kirsten Gillibrand) the complainants will simultaneously become immortal while you are being dragged through the mud along with me. You might even get a cameo in an SJW documentary or a magazine article.
And did I mention the best part, yet? I'm a student.
I have no money.
Then come on back here and tell us what that lawyer says.
So while I don't doubt the sincerity of commenters that are disgusted by university actions like this, or their sincerity in congratulating the young men when they win, undertsand something - this has been happening a long time. Its nothing new. Not by a damn sight. And for every one you read about that comes out well, there are hundreds that you never hear about that get trampled underfoot.
So if you want something to change, you have to change something. And it doesn't get changed on message boards. It gets changed with money, votes and people taking a public stand. Right now, at a school near you, some kid is having his life ruined. Might be a school you graduated from, that solicits you for funds every now and again. Might just be your local college. And he can't just "Sue 'em." He doesn't have the resources, and most likely what friends he though he had can't get far enough away fast enough.
Until it becomes more uncomfortable to victimize than to be victimized, it will continue. As long as Universities have an endless supply of money, power, and federal law behind them and young male students have nothing to fight back with, it will remain perfectly safe (rare exceptions aside) to treat them as if they are less than dirt.
Cases like this will remain a tiny minority.
The WolfMan at July 15, 2015 12:10 PM
Amy, please remove the first post. I hit "submit" instead of "preview." Sorry bout that.
The WolfMan at July 15, 2015 12:11 PM
The WolfMan, I hope you decide to de-lurk more often. I enjoyed your post. I would introduce myself, but I guess you already know us pretty well.
Patrick at July 15, 2015 1:21 PM
The Wolfman's slippery-slopey post is premised on someone wanting to bring a suit against a private school. UCSD is a public institution -- different hurdles, different standards, different outcome.
Meanwhile, before we get too excited, UCSD is still deciding whether to appeal. My bet is that they will, and that if the 4th District Court of Appeal upholds Pressman's ruling, the university will take it to the Cal Supreme Court. They've got the resources, and a favorable lower-court opinion will set a bad precedent -- not just for UCSD, but for the whole UC system. (It won't be binding outside of the 4th district, but it will carry some weight.)
JD at July 15, 2015 4:20 PM
Wow, JD. Your first post calls my post "slippery slopey," and then your second paragraph beautifully reinforces my point. Hope you strecth out before you do stuff like that.
Thank you Patrick. I take that compliment to heart. I have read your posts, and while we don't always agree, I find you thoughtful and articulate.
The WolfMan at July 15, 2015 4:43 PM
This case is slightly different, it isnt he said she said.
its they both said the same thing,
everyone knows the woman has sexual contact with an unconscious body
everyone knows that under the letter of the law as written* she is the guilty party
they punished him anyway (just for being male) and continued to pile on punishments when he protested
this is a slam dunk of a case, as under the law being drunk is not a mitigating factor for the assailant
quite frankly I hope he tried pressing criminal charges, just so he can sue the local DA for federal civil rights violations
*the laws were written gender neutral
lujlp at July 15, 2015 9:43 PM
In reading about this case, it makes me think about sharia law. Specifically, about the law which dictates that a woman who's being raped has to scream in protest and be overheard by x number of witnesses, otherwise, she's an Allah-damned whore and must be stoned to death in a ritualized honor-killing.
I mean, think about the precedent this sets. A young woman on a college campus could talk to a hot guy and impulsively kiss him, whether he wants her to or not. But that makes him guilty of sexual assault, if she decides she's embarrassed by her impulsive act.
So, I guess the guy has to scream bloody murder if she so much as touches him, and even that might not protect him.
Patrick at July 16, 2015 1:40 AM
You're welcome, The Wolfman. Regarding your comments, I didn't find your argument "slippery-slopey" at all. It just seems that you were pointing out that a young male college student wrongfully accused and denied his due process rights by the college is fighting an enemy with deep pockets.
Nothing difficult or slippery-slopey about that.
Patrick at July 16, 2015 5:07 AM
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